# Issues using new masking



## mike-parkandbridge (Oct 29, 2021)

Hi. I've upgraded and things seem fine EXCEPT for the masking tools. Either I've got/done something stupid, or when you create a "select subject" mask and then want to use the brush tool to erase some of the unwanted mask (because it isn't part of your subject) LR wont let you ,move the tool onto the mage. I've think I've learned how to use it properly - or maybe not.


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## Jim Wilde (Oct 29, 2021)

Make sure the brush size isn't set too small, as it would be easy with a very small brush to think that LrC isn't letting you move the tool over the image.


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## reidthaler (Oct 29, 2021)

Are you clicking Subtract after you select Subject/Sky, then brush?

Note that you can only Subtract from the  mask.  If you want to select more with the brush, you have to click Add and choose Brush/


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## Johan Elzenga (Oct 30, 2021)

Using a brush to fine tune a mask is quite different from before, because you now use the brush in its own submask, not in the subject mask below. That means that switching the brush to ‘Erase’, does not work to erase parts of the subject mask. The reason that you can still switch to ‘Erase’ is that you sometimes want to erase a part of the brush mask again (because you went over an edge, for example). To erase part of the subject mask, you have to click ‘Subtract’ and then use a brush. And then again you should not switch to erase. You’ll paint brush strokes that will be subtracted, so you must add brush strokes.


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## jjlad (Nov 1, 2021)

What I'm finding is that there is no use adding to or deleting from the Subject or Sky masks. The reason is that if another mask is used such as a Gradient Mask, from which the Subject should be subtracted, the Subject will be subtracted but the masks that subtracted from or added to it, are not included, so they have to be re-created as Subtract or Add masks on the Gradient or whatever other tool is used. I find this so cumbersome I'm back to just using a brush to do my selections because I can add and subtract from it infinitely easier. No idea how to deal with the complexity of this masking even after 3 days of trying. 
I've also watched videos about the luminance masks etc. To me the HSL panel does that without needing masks at all. I'm really scratching my head about this whole thing again. I thought I was making progress but am finding the subject and sky masking useful only for the simplest of images, where no complexity exists requiring mask modifications. The brush tool works just as well for me to make selections because the Alt is available to easily refine them. 
Love the 'idea' but until they Group the Subject and its  sub-masks and the Sky and its sub-masks so they can be subtracted as complete units from other operations, the whole process is just a make work project. I've caved in my skull on over 50 images so far and am giving up on the Subject and Sky masks. Life is too short.


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## jjlad (Nov 1, 2021)

May have discovered a workaround. I'll try it on a few more images and report back. Sorry for the negativity but my eyeballs are hanging out on their springs after so many frustrating hours on this.


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## jjlad (Nov 1, 2021)

Some progress. I can make the more accurate subject selection using a brush then invert that to get to the background. Have to do the thin subject edges with Auto Mask selected then uncheck that to do the rest of the selection. This provides a more speed and flexibility, especially when handling the luminance etc. with the HSL panel.  The fewer layers the better and avoiding the Select Subject and Select Sky altogether is a big help. Just working on old photos to experiment but have some shoots coming up and want to be ready to process them.


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## reidthaler (Nov 1, 2021)

I'll have to review your post from last night, but I think NOT using the the Select Subject/Sky tools is like driving your car in reverse predominantly:  you'll get there, but there are better ways.  Adobe put a lot of work into the new masking and before you just walk away, see how they can work for you.  It's that way when I first starting driving my wife's Tesla with auto braking.  I hated it the first day, then realized that someone put more thought into than I did and I should be open minded.  I just had to shift my driving to think that I was driving an expensive golf cart:  when you let up on the accelerator, the car slows.  It makes so much sense now that driving a gas car with two pedals seems so anachronistic.

 I'm finding that if I need to invert a mask do it first, then modify (+/-).  I'll try to replicate the issue you are having, but continue to use the masking tools on complicated selections and can't image going back.  In fact, I'm going back over old images, selecting the subject, inverting, and pulling down the exposure a little.  They look so much better with so little work.


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## Victoria Bampton (Nov 1, 2021)

jjlad said:


> Sorry for the negativity but my eyeballs are hanging out on their springs after so many frustrating hours on this.



It's not just you JJ, this is such a big change, it took me ages to get my head round it too. Now I have, I like it better, but you'd probably find the new chapter in my LR Missing FAQ would shortcut the frustration a bit.


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## mike-parkandbridge (Nov 1, 2021)

Hi everyone and thanks for all the help. I think it was probably a glitch of some sort.  I restarted my iMac a couple of time with no resolution. Then i remembered to run Cocktail and restart. Lo and behold, I now don't have any problems with doing what I was trying to do - ie: use the brush tool to subtract from an AI automask of the subject. Weird.  Maybe a cache issue?


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## jjlad (Nov 1, 2021)

Thanks for replying (yet again),
Please try this. Find a photo where the subject you'd like to select is on a relatively complex background. And if possible, where the sky has lots of trees in front of it as well. I've been working on older sports shoots ...Sno-x , Rodeo (Cutting) and Polo.
The Select Subject never gets it. It's picking up fences and missing horses' ears, missing the snowmobile track gears slightly obscured by flying snow, missing the handles on the Polo mallets, missing fingers on hands and reins on the horses. Often the Sky is an issue ...particularly on the Sno-x images because they are shot in winter with  overcast and on some days there's even an ice fog in the air. 

There is no choice other than to add and subtract elements from the sky and the subject, but the way LR masking is working for me, none of that can be done on the sky or subject masks because each adjustment creates a new sub-mask and those new sub-masks aren't grouped with the subject or sky and cannot be subtracted with the subject or sky ...from other adjustments. Instead I have to just Ai them select what it will, then create separate adjustment masks, subtract the subject and sky from those, then add additional Subtract Brush and Add Brush on those masks to deal with what the Subject and Sky masks didn't get right with Ai.  That's why I'm finding it easier and more flexible to just do all my selections with a brush in the first place. Takes way less time and is far less complex.

Photoshop does very well on those. I actually run them in batch so the preliminary selections are already done and placed on a masked layer. 

The action I made does this: 

selects the subject
saves that selection as channel "s1"
makes a mask of the selection on its own layer 
makes a copy of the background 
removes the subject (by loading s1 and expanding it 10px then Content Aware Filling that selection to prevent ghosting 
converts that layer to a Smart Object 
applies a Field Blur to that Smart layer, on which 9 blur points are placed, spaced evenly with stronger blurs toward the top
ends the execution with the cursor at the Smart layer
That action runs in batch on whatever number of photos I've flipped into PS. Tthree click and the preliminary work is done. Prepping 40 photos like that takes a couple of minutes with 64g ram.
Each image is briefly revisited, so the mask can be modified as needed with black and white brushing, and the blur points on the field blur of the smart object can be individually adjusted and/or moved, to precisely create the depth of field  and bokeh I want. I then save them as jpgs into my Watched Folder in LR and drag them into the original folder.  
That's another issue I wish Adobe would address. Give us the option to save into the original folder with a name appendix like "-Edit" and automatically include it in the Catalog. I have to use that watched folder routine to do it now which is a pain in the posterior region. Also, from there I've lost all the edit layers unless I save them but that is too much space. 

It would be great if more of that could be done without ever leaving Lightroom! I was pumped about layers too. The parts of the subject it does select automatically, are awesome ...no ghosting, nice and clean. That's why I kept trying and won't give up entirely but for now I just haven't been successful at making  an efficient  'workflow' of it.

The underlying issue is Adobe's decision to not *"Group" the sub-masks of Subject and Sky* with the Subject and Sky, so they can be collectively added and subtracted from other adjustments. That and not having automatic standardized (albeit editable) naming, is the 'reverse gear' that is causing my erratic driving.


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## jjlad (Nov 1, 2021)

Victoria Bampton said:


> It's not just you JJ, this is such a big change, it took me ages to get my head round it too. Now I have, I like it better, but you'd probably find the new chapter in my LR Missing FAQ would shortcut the frustration a bit.


Thanks Victoria. Just ordered it. Ouch ...$35 for us Canadians ...hope all the chapters besides the new one are helpful too. I'm sure it won't hurt to review it all, although I have processed thousands of images in LR.


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## Victoria Bampton (Nov 2, 2021)

jjlad said:


> Thanks Victoria. Just ordered it. Ouch ...$35 for us Canadians ...hope all the chapters besides the new one are helpful too. I'm sure it won't hurt to review it all, although I have processed thousands of images in LR.


There some tips in there even the current engineers don't know about, so I'm certain you'll find some other gems besides the new masking stuff.


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## jjlad (Nov 2, 2021)

Victoria Bampton said:


> There some tips in there even the current engineers don't know about, so I'm certain you'll find some other gems besides the new masking stuff.


Great! Now I know why your avatar looks so mischievous.


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