# Lightroom>raw file>edit in>goto Photoshop>raw file does not open in Camera Raw



## dentalgs (Apr 2, 2021)

I am shooting with Olympus>ORF Raw file. If I go to edit in>PS>the file does not open automatically in Camera Raw. This all started in the latest update to LR. Has anyone noticed this as well?


----------



## Rob_Cullen (Apr 2, 2021)

That is perfectly normal! And always has been!!
Lightroom-Classic Develop module IS 'Camera Raw'. (The Adobe Camera Raw plugin for Ps is not needed when you [Edit-in] a raw file from LrC).

This quote from Lightroom Queen- And see the 'flow' diagram:
_"Render using Lightroom uses Lightroom’s own processing engine to render the file, which is then automatically opened into Photoshop. This does mean that an additional TIFF or PSD file is created, depending on your preferences, however all of your Lightroom adjustments will be applied correctly."_
If it never happened before then you were not using (updated) compatible versions of LrC and Ps.
https://www.lightroomqueen.com/what...m-and-open-anyway-in-the-acr-mismatch-dialog/


----------



## Jim Wilde (Apr 2, 2021)

I-See-Light said:


> Lightroom-Classic Develop module IS 'Camera Raw'. (The Adobe Camera Raw plugin for Ps is not needed when you [Edit-in] a raw file from LrC).


It depends.....if LrC and the ACR plug-in to PS are at the same level (as they are for the OP) then LrC passes all relevant data to PS which then "silently" (i.e. the ACR dialog is not shown) uses its ACR plug-in to render the raw file for processing in PS. Only when there's a mis-match (which should now be quite rare if the users update their apps at the same time) would LrC do the rendering, in which case the TIFF/PSD appears in LrC before it opens in PS.

BTW, the "mis-match" only occurs when the ACR plug-in is at a lower equivalent level to LrC, e.g. if a user is running latest LrC 10.2, but hasn't yet updated Camera Raw to 13.2 then the mis-match dialog should trigger (provided the user hasn't previously selected the "Don't show again" option). Doing things the other way round, i.e. still running LrC 10.1.1 but Camera Raw has been updated to 13.2, that mis-match dialog is not triggered and the raw file is rendered by ACR as usual.


----------



## Rob_Cullen (Apr 2, 2021)

Jim Wilde said:


> LrC passes all relevant data to PS which then "silently" (i.e. the ACR dialog is not shown) uses its ACR plug-in to render the raw file for processing in PS.


Thanks Jim for the explanation. I guess my answer should have been condensed to "_ACR dialog is not shown_" - which is normal.


----------



## Denis de Gannes (May 8, 2021)

I like your description to the point with the relevant info.  QED.


----------



## Colin Grant (May 8, 2021)

I guess that "might" be one of the advantages in ON1 in that PhotRaw is always editing the raw file, irrespective of whether one is in Develop, Effects or whatever. But the ON1 dam is nothing to write home about imo.


----------



## Denis de Gannes (May 8, 2021)

Are you referring to  opening and editing in ON 1 or using Lightroom Classic to send the image file to edit in ON 1?


----------



## Colin Grant (May 8, 2021)

What I am saying is when using the full PhotoRaw as an editing suite one is always editing the raw data whilst with Lr/Ps raw editing stops once you get to Ps. I still prefer Adobe by a long way but that is nevertheless the case.


----------



## Denis de Gannes (May 8, 2021)

The point I was making is if you use Lightroom Classic and select edit in ON 1, Lightroom will render the raw data and a tiff or psd image file will be sent to ON 1  for further editing.
The first application to use the raw file will render the raw data.


----------



## Colin Grant (May 8, 2021)

I accept and understand that, which is why I make the point that working entirely in ON1 has an apparent advantage in that you are always editing the raw file. At least you are until you get into layers (as oppose to filters) - I am unsure at which point the conversion to a layer based file format takes place.


----------



## Denis de Gannes (May 8, 2021)

When you save your work and quit /shut down ON 1 what are you left with?


----------



## Colin Grant (May 8, 2021)

a raw file.


----------



## Johan Elzenga (May 8, 2021)

Colin Grant said:


> a raw file.


No raw converter in the world can save an edited raw file, i.e. edited raw data that are still raw. A raw file needs to be demosaiced to create a visible image, and when demosaiced the data are no longer raw data. A raw converter will save the edits separately in a catalog (like Lightroom does), an XMP sidecar file, a DNG file, or possibly in the metadata of the original raw file itself (like Canon DPP can do), or it will create a derivative file (tiff/psd) with the edits baked into the pixels. I don’t know what On1 uses, but it will basically be the same as what Lightroom does: non-destructive editing of the raw file, meaning that the edits are stored separately.


----------



## Colin Grant (May 8, 2021)

My point is that ON1 PhotoRaw behaves the same as Lr. The raw data is preserved throughout and given the functionality within ON1 there is not so much need to hand off to the likes of Ps. Lr on the other hand is often used to hand off to Ps (to do things that are possible in ON1). At that point the raw data is not being edited as Lr hands a tiff off to Ps. So Ps is not a raw editor. On the other hand ON1 is a raw editor not a raw converter - unless one elects to export to jpeg etc. I fully understand what raw data is and how it is displayed and of course ON1 uses sidecar files. My comment above "a raw file" remains valid therefore, given the question I was answering.

I am not saying ON1 is better than Adobe. I am just saying the ability to stay with the raw file must be a plus point.


----------



## Denis de Gannes (May 9, 2021)

Colin Grant said:


> My point is that ON1 PhotoRaw behaves the same as Lr. The raw data is preserved throughout and given the functionality within ON1 there is not so much need to hand off to the likes of Ps. Lr on the other hand is often used to hand off to Ps (to do things that are possible in ON1). At that point the raw data is not being edited as Lr hands a tiff off to Ps. So Ps is not a raw editor. On the other hand ON1 is a raw editor not a raw converter - unless one elects to export to jpeg etc. I fully understand what raw data is and how it is displayed and of course ON1 uses sidecar files. My comment above "a raw file" remains valid therefore, given the question I was answering.
> 
> I am not saying ON1 is better than Adobe. I am just saying the ability to stay with the raw file must be a plus point.


I asked the question  “When you save your work and quit /shut down ON 1 what are you left with?”.
You said “A raw file”.
So where is the info concerning the work you did in ON1 saved?
Is it in a sidecar file? Is it saved to a Catalog file like Lightroom Classic?
Is it possibly in a new file created by ON 1, a DNG, tiff or jpeg?
I am not certain but I do not believe it is written to the Raw file header.
As Johan indicates ON 1 would have rendered the raw data which is in the computer memory while it carries out edits. Lightroom functions the same way when working with raw files in the develop module.

I have ON 1 2020 on my computer at home and will be returning from a short vacation tomorrow and will check what happens.


----------



## Colin Grant (May 9, 2021)

As I said in my above post. ON1 uses sidecar files like Lr so there is no need to check. But the point is still being missed - my comparison was ON1 to Ps. The latter is not a raw editor and seeing as ON1 can do much of what photographers need from Ps that must be a plus point for ON1.


----------



## Denis de Gannes (May 9, 2021)

Colin Grant said:


> As I said in my above post. ON1 uses sidecar files like Lr so there is no need to check. But the point is still being missed - my comparison was ON1 to Ps. The latter is not a raw editor and seeing as ON1 can do much of what photographers need from Ps that must be a plus point for ON1.


LrC Develop module is an alternative to Adobe Camera Raw Plug-in which is within PS.
LrC does not have the ability to work with Layers, One can have the Layered tiff/psd in the Lightroom Catalog file but cannot edit the layers.
So in the LrC / PS workflow if you wish to edit the layers then you would have to do that in PS, which is a complex and powerful application far more advanced than ON 1. Layered files can become extremely large.

Sure ON 1 has the ability to work with Layers and that is a plus for it versus LrC.
However if you have LrC then you also have access to the full power Photoshop since they are marketed is a single package.
As I said, later today I will check how things work in ON 1.
As an amateur photographer I do not work much in Layers.
Maybe If I was in the market to choose an application with raw processing ability for the first time I would certain consider ON 1 as a single application.


----------



## Johan Elzenga (May 9, 2021)

Colin Grant said:


> On the other hand ON1 is a raw editor not a raw converter


That is semantics only. Every raw editor is a raw converter too. A raw editor needs to render (convert) the raw file to RGB before you can do anything with it. That is not limited to exporting: if you can print straight out of On1 then that’s raw conversion taking place under the hood. Even the preview you watch when you edit the raw file is a rendered RGB file, so even when you just edit the raw file there will be raw conversion taking place under the hood.


----------



## Colin Grant (May 9, 2021)

I have used Lr and Ps for over 8 years now. I know how it works. This has nothing to do with how Lr/Ps work save for the fact that ON1 has a fair amount of the power of Ps yet manages to keep the entire process as a non-destructive raw edit. Ps can not do that. Yes, it leverages off ACR or takes its images from Lr, which also uses ACR, but once in Ps proper raw editing stops. ON1 does a lot more than just layers - its filters can provide an awful lot of effects that are not available in Lr but are in Ps. The upside therefore is those effects are done in raw edit mode. That must be a plus I would have thought. There are of course a lot of reasons to stick with Lr/Ps. The Lr dam for a start is a best of breed, whilst ON1's is, I find, lacking and a bit flaky. Ps on the other hand is the best pixel level editor out there and does far more than I will ever need.  And despite what some think, I do trust Adobe with my images. I also feel the results I get are better than out of ON1 - I am a Fuji X shooter so some of my peers (but by no means all) will find that comment odd.


----------



## Colin Grant (May 9, 2021)

Johan Elzenga said:


> That is semantics only. Every raw editor is a raw converter too. A raw editor needs to render (convert) the raw file to RGB before you can do anything with it. That is not limited to exporting: if you can print straight out of On1 then that’s raw conversion taking place under the hood. Even the preview you watch when you edit the raw file is a rendered RGB file, so even when you just edit the raw file there will be raw conversion taking place under the hood.


Not semantics. Not in the context of your original post. You do not appear to be able to grasp my point so best leave it there.


----------



## Johan Elzenga (May 9, 2021)

Colin Grant said:


> Not semantics. Not in the context of your original post. You do not appear to be able to grasp my point so best leave it there.


I get your point just fine and I have no comments on what you said. I do not know On1 well enough to make any judgements on what you say about it, and how its layer feature would compare to using smart object layers in Photoshop, for example. I just don't like to be 'corrected' on something I said correctly in the first place.


----------



## Johan Elzenga (May 9, 2021)

BTW, it's nice to see how On1 can use layers on top of a raw file. I agree that it would be great if Lightroom could do that. From what I see on the On1 website, it looks like the layers will be rendered images however, not raw files too. Maybe you can tell us whether that observation is correct or not. If that observation is correct, then my answer would be "Photoshop can do better than that!". It's not that easy, and it takes a bit of extra effort if you want to do it from Lightroom, but Photoshop can layer images and keep the raw properties of all the images by stacking raw images as smart object layers.

So yes, I admit once again that it would be nice to have a single application that can do it all, but I'm not so certain that On1 offers superior results over the Lightroom/Photoshop combo from a technical point of view. Maybe it does, but I doubt it.


----------



## Colin Grant (May 9, 2021)

All I suggested was that staying in the raw workspace longer is probably a benefit.  As to layers, there are two types really:
1) effects which are layered and have all the blend modes. These basically achieve most if not all the things you can accomplish in smart objects but without having to break out of the raw editor or use traditional layers. These have extremely versatile masking functionality including both luminosity and colour range.  Masking and  the "layer" approach to editing are possibly two areas where ON1 does surpass Lr.
2)Traditional layers are also available and I am not sure what the workflow function here is. I believe it is still the raw data that is edited but it is then wrapped up in a ".onone" file to preserve the layers. Nobody on the ON1 boards has been able to say what the ".onone" file really is.

Finally I still stand by my comment re converter/editor in the context of the questions/statements at the time. I was talking about editing capabilities and nothing else. I also prefer Ps as it allows add ons like the TK7 panel, which to me is a godsend.


----------



## clee01l (May 9, 2021)

Johan Elzenga said:


> From what I see on the On1 website, it looks like the layers will be rendered images however, not raw files too.


I agree.  RAW files consist of photo sites that measure light intensity.  There are no pixels since there is no RGB conversion of the photo site values into RGB color values.  I have not looked into ON1 lately, but it is to me a product similar to Photoshop.    Photoshop renders images, sometimes layered images as a derivative RGB file.   The last time I used On1, it did the same thing.


----------



## Colin Grant (May 9, 2021)

ON1 is a raw editor and not a pixel editor like Ps (although it can work on none raw files too).  It edits raw files in the develop panel and the effects panel. The effects panel is layered filters that apart from some excellent masking also provides for blending of the layers. At this stage we are still editing raw data with edits being retained is a sidecar file. I believe that even when switching to the more traditional layer functionality ON1 is still editing the raw data, although it does save that out to a proprietory "dot onone" file to preserve the layers. The nature of that file is still a mystery to me and I have enquired of the devs.


----------



## dentalgs (Apr 2, 2021)

I am shooting with Olympus>ORF Raw file. If I go to edit in>PS>the file does not open automatically in Camera Raw. This all started in the latest update to LR. Has anyone noticed this as well?


----------



## Colin Grant (May 9, 2021)

Just to add to the above. I do agree that the layer (not effects layers)  functionality of ON1 might be similar to Ps.


----------



## Johan Elzenga (May 9, 2021)

Colin Grant said:


> ON1 is a raw editor and not a pixel editor like Ps (although it can work on none raw files too).  It edits raw files in the develop panel and the effects panel. The effects panel is layered filters that apart from some excellent masking also provides for blending of the layers. At this stage we are still editing raw data with edits being retained is a sidecar file. I believe that even when switching to the more traditional layer functionality ON1 is still editing the raw data, although it does save that out to a proprietory "dot onone" file to preserve the layers. The nature of that file is still a mystery to me and I have enquired of the devs.


Nobody is disputing that On1 is a raw editor, but Photoshop can be used as a raw editor too if you open your raw file from Lightroom or ACR *as a smart object*. And that was my point: it seems to me (from the On1 website, not from own experience) that if I want to replace a sky in On1, the base image would be a raw file, but the sky image would not be a raw file. In Photoshop on the other hand I can use a sky image that is also a 'raw smart object'. The only thing is that I would have to do the sky replacement manually by creating my own masks, because the new 'Sky Replacement' feature in Photoshop does not support 'raw smart objects' as skies. If you are interested, I would be able to suggest a work around which makes even that possible.


----------



## clee01l (May 9, 2021)

Colin Grant said:


> ON1 is a raw editor and not a pixel editor like Ps (although it can work on none raw files too). It edits raw files in the develop panel and the effects panel.



There are no apps that edit Raw Photosite values. A photos site in a RAW file will contain a number value like 0.987. This is in no way a color pixel. It is assigned a color value depending on which color filter has been placed over it. It takes 4 photo sites to make up one pixel There are twice as many green filtered photo sites as there are red or blue filtered photo sites 
Read this link to understand the Bayer Filter applied to photo sites and how an RGB pixel is constructed. There are other filters that are applied in some cameras, but the principle is the same
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayer_filter
Every photo editor including ON1 and Photoshop works with RGB pixels even though the source file might be RAW, there is an intermediate step the creates an RGB image data block. It is this data that the photo editor works with. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Colin Grant (May 9, 2021)

Johan Elzenga said:


> Nobody is disputing that On1 is a raw editor, but Photoshop can be used as a raw editor too if you open your raw file from Lightroom or ACR *as a smart object*. And that was my point: it seems to me (from the On1 website, not from own experience) that if I want to replace a sky in On1, the base image would be a raw file, but the sky image would not be a raw file. In Photoshop on the other hand I can use a sky image that is also a 'raw smart object'. The only thing is that I would have to do the sky replacement manually by creating my own masks, because the new 'Sky Replacement' feature in Photoshop does not support 'raw smart objects' as skies. If you are interested, I would be able to suggest a work around which makes even that possible.


Is Ps editing the raw in a Smart Object then? That is something I did not know. I thought it was just applying ACR at pixel level. That workaround would be ingeresting ( sky replacement). I do not do it much but when I do.........


----------



## Johan Elzenga (May 9, 2021)

Colin Grant said:


> Is Ps editing the raw in a Smart Object then? That is something I did not know. I thought it was just applying ACR at pixel level. That workaround would be ingeresting ( sky replacement). I do not do it much but when I do.........


Yes. If you send a raw file as smart object to Photoshop, then you will get an embedded raw file as smart object layer. Double clicking the smart object layer will open Camera Raw so you can edit the raw file.

The work around would be as follows:
1: Send the base raw file to Photoshop as smart object.
2: Use ‘Sky Replacement’ and select a sky that looks similar in color to the raw sky image you want to use.
3: Send the sky raw file as smart object to Photoshop. It will be opened in a new document.
4: Drag & drop the sky smart object into your base document and place it directly above the sky layer that Photoshop created.
5: Drag the mask of the sky layer and drop it onto the sky smart object layer.
6: Delete the old sky layer.


----------



## Colin Grant (May 9, 2021)

Thanks that is a useful tip. So Ps can edit raw non-destructively but it will not include any Lr edits presumably as they will not be sent across with the raw? Devil's advocate and all that, this being the case and given the power of Ps, especially when combined with stuff like the TK7 panel, there is perhaps a question over whether to to edit in Lr at all. Or at least not bothering to edit in Lr if Ps is going to be needed.


----------



## Johan Elzenga (May 9, 2021)

Actually, the Lightroom edits *are* sent across with the raw file, so if you double click the smart object then Camera Raw will open with the Lightroom edits in place. How else can the Photoshop file be identical in appearance to the raw file in Lightroom? You could say that the ‘Open as smart object in Photoshop’ menu makes Photoshop work very much like On1, but you’ll find that Photoshop is way more advanced than On1.

The reason to edit in Lightroom is simple, at least to me. The reason is that most of my images do not need anything else, and certainly not layers. So 98% of my images are never sent to Photoshop, and if I was using On1 rather than Lightroom, then I would have said that I do not use the layers function with 98% of my images.


----------



## Colin Grant (May 10, 2021)

You did notice that my reference to Lr edits moving across was a question did you not? And this was never a debate about whether Ps was better, I have always believed that to be the case, although a significant amount of its capability remains unused in my case. The only advantage in doing edits in Lr so far as I can see is I have it. I could happily work with Ps alone with something like Bridge as my dam. That said, I am starting to look at syncing. That could change my workflow driver significantly.

Incidentally the main upside in ON1 is the effects module imo. The layer based approach is in my view much easier to work with for local adjustments. The downside is the ON1 dam is awful (Imo).


----------



## Colin Grant (May 10, 2021)

Oh yes, in response to your rather flippant comment. If the raw file was not edited in Lr then of course it would look the same in Ps. If the edits were not being transferred ( you say they are so fine) it would be rather foolish to edit in Lr first would it not! You do love twisting things.


----------



## Johan Elzenga (May 10, 2021)

Could we keep this conversation friendly and refrain from personal attacks? I'm trying to explain to you how things work (or can work). I do not constantly read all previous 34 messages to see if something was already mentioned or asked in a different way. If that is 'twisting things' in your opinion, then I apologise for that. It's not intentional.


----------



## Colin Grant (May 10, 2021)

Fair. Enough. Point taken


----------



## Denis de Gannes (May 12, 2021)

I finally had a chance to check ON1 Photo Raw and the layers feature. So while working in layers I get two popups that have some relevance to the discussion. Of note, the layers info is contained in a file * .ONPhoto". See the attached screen captures. I have also been unable to locate one of the files to get info about size etc.


----------



## clee01l (May 12, 2021)

Denis de Gannes said:


> I finally had a chance to check ON1 Photo Raw and the layers feature. So while working in layers I get two popups that have some relevance to the discussion. Of note, the layers info is contained in a file * .ONPhoto". See the attached screen captures. I have also been unable to locate one of the files to get info about size etc.



So to summarize. The “*.ONPhoto” format is a proprietary file format. It may continue many data blocks (layers) and one of these data blocks could be the original unedited mosaiced RAW data. Any other “edited” layers would be RGB data. 

With the exception of being proprietary, this is not unlike the public Adobe DNG file format. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## MrFixit (May 17, 2021)

Just use Smart Objects in PS to remain in a non-destructive workflow.


----------

