# Delete Commands Confusing



## GregJ (Mar 9, 2012)

I know I'm sounding like a LR Rookie here, and I understand the basics of how LR works, but I'm confused on the various delete commands.....

 I know how to remove a photo from the Collection and the Catalog.  LR Help does not explain the "Delete Rejected Photos" command, and in my mind, the documentation uses the wrong terminology because what I need to do is delete photos that are bad from the actual windows folder -- delete the actual RAW file, not just the data base information in the cataloge or collection.  I have been going to "Reveal in Explorer," and deleting the files that way.  I know there has to be a way to do this in LR.  Does the remove from catalog command delete the raw file from windows?  I would think not because the catalog has nothing to do with the actual RAW file itself.  

Also -- when I updated to LR4, did my sidecar files automatically all update?  I suppose that since a completely new LR Catalog was created that all side car files were updated too - -all 5000 of thme (one per RAW file).  I want every development correction I make to every individual shot to be immeditaely automatically updated in each sidecar files, not just the catalog.  I had that set up that way in LR 3, but forgot how I did it.  I guess I could make an edit, then go to windows and check the side-car file to see if it has a new date time stamp of the moment before.......

Thanks,  Greg J


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## LouieSherwin (Mar 9, 2012)

GregJ said:


> Also -- when I updated to LR4, did my sidecar files automatically all update?  I suppose that since a completely new LR Catalog was created that all side car files were updated too - -all 5000 of thme (one per RAW file).



I don' think LR will touch your XMP sidecar files as part of the conversion. All images that have had develop settings applied in LR3 will still be set to use PV2010 when you open them in LR4. You have to explicitly upgrade these images to the new PV2010 to start using the new develop features. 



> I want every development correction I make to every individual shot to be immeditaely automatically updated in each sidecar files, not just the catalog.  I had that set up that way in LR 3, but forgot how I did it.  I guess I could make an edit, then go to windows and check the side-car file to see if it has a new date time stamp of the moment before.......



This is a setting in the Catalog Settings dialog under the Metadata tag. "Automatically write changes into XMP". This option was carried forward from my LR3 catalog when I upgraded. You do have to remember to make this setting any time you make a new catalog.

-louie


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## clee01l (Mar 9, 2012)

Greg, Let me address the sidecar issue.  Sidecars contain the XMP data that includes the adjustment settings.  The file itself is a readable plain text file.  When LR4 Converted your catalog, It just added new tables and new fields to the existing database structure, Except where individual fields might have been moved or enlarged, none of the existing data was changed  The same is true for your XMP data. Nothing was changed.  Your image that were processed using  "Process 2003" or "Process 2010" still have the same settings and the same XMP datafiles.   If you look at one of the inalge that has not been changed since you converted, you will notice the (!) in the lower right corner that signifies the it was developed using an older process.  Until you use the new "Process 2012", you adjustment sliders will not change and neither will the XMP sidecar files.


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## GregJ (Mar 9, 2012)

Thanks Cletus.  I just saw that by checking the windows folder and the xmp files, they remaiuned with the old date stamp and when I developed one in process 2012 in LR4 it updated the sidecar (saw the new date time stamp).  I get it now.  My xmp files are automatically updating with every new development command, but otherwise remain unchanged, even when updating to LR4.  

OK, so what about the delete question?  I want to be able to quickly delete the raw file from the actual windows folder if I need to -- not just the LR catalog or collection.


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## erro (Mar 9, 2012)

GregJ said:


> I know how to remove a photo from the Collection and the Catalog.  LR Help does not explain the "Delete Rejected Photos" command, and in my mind, the documentation uses the wrong terminology because what I need to do is delete photos that are bad from the actual windows folder -- delete the actual RAW file, not just the data base information in the cataloge or collection.  I have been going to "Reveal in Explorer," and deleting the files that way.  I know there has to be a way to do this in LR.  Does the remove from catalog command delete the raw file from windows?  I would think not because the catalog has nothing to do with the actual RAW file itself.



I don't have LR in front of me now, but this is how I understand it should work:

When you are in a folder, delete by default deletes the actual photos from disk, but you get a question asking if you want to delete (from disk) or remove (from catalog). Delete also removes from catalog of course. Remove keeps the photos on disk.

If you are in a collection, delete immediately removes the photos from the collection, but keeps them in the catalog and (obviously) also on disk. If you want to actually delete photos from disk when you are in a collection, you can use Ctrl-Alt-Shift-delete (I think it is) and that will immediately delete the photos from disk (and catalog too of course). Note that you will never get a question when you are in a collection (at least I think not) so you'd better be sure what you are doing.

"Delete rejected photos" is a special case of deleting the photos you have marked with the reject flag. If I remember correctly this is also depending on wether you're in a folder or in a collection, and behaves accordingly. "Delete rejected photos" in a folder deletes from disk, while "Delete rejected photos" in a collection only removes them from the collection.

But I might be wrong, since this is all from the top of my head.


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## clee01l (Mar 9, 2012)

I like to distinguish between 'delete' and 'remove'.  And I prefer working from the Context (popup) menu instead of using menu commands off of the menu bar. You can remove from a static collection  (but not the catalog) by choosing that option off of the Context menu or by pressing the {Delete} key. You can DELETE the same image from a Static Collection, Catalog AND the HD, with the {Alt}{Delete} key combination. I don't like this because there is not a confirmation dialog warning you of what a drastic step is about to take place.  If in the top menu you choose {Delete Rejected Photos} from a collection, the image is removed from the Collection ONLY. Whereas, it you choose the same menu option while in the Folder OR in the All Photographs Collection, you get a confirmation menu where you can choose to remove (from the catalog) or Delete from the catalog and HD. {Delete Rejected Photos} from a collection still retains the image in the catalog and it keeps it rejected (X) flag. 

For clarity (and to keep everything straight in my mind)  I work exclusively in Collections.  For the most part, I keep the Folder panel hidden from view (unchecked) in the Left Pane.  I remove images from the collection using the context menu.  Image that I want to delete from the HD, I mark with a reject flag (X).  Becaus I can not get a confirmation dialog, I do not use the {Alt}{Delete} key combination to Delete images.  (you never know with certainty whether there is one image selected that you see or 40 images selected and 39 are out of view).  When I have one or more rejected (X) images that I want to remove physically from the HD and the catalog, I move to the "All Photographs" collection and use the filterbar to find rejected (X) images which I can then select and delete with a confirmation dialog. 

Now I don't know if my method meets your requirement to "be able to quickly delete the raw file", but it does insure some certaintly on my part for exactly which images are getting deleted from the HD and removed from the catalog.


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## GregJ (Mar 9, 2012)

Cletus,

Just reading this delete stuff makes my head spin.  This is obviously something that should be well documented and explained in LR.  I bet most people, especially LR beginners, have no clue about these details between the hard drive raw file in a windows folder, theLR Ccollection and the overall Catalog, or the various iterations of how to delete from one or all, and what that really means.  I think when I want to delete a file forever from the hard drive, I'll show in windows explorer and just delete it there.  But I'll try a dry-run on what you explained.


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## clee01l (Mar 9, 2012)

GregJ said:


> ...I think when I want to delete a file forever from the hard drive, I'll show in windows explorer and just delete it there...


 This can be the worst way to delete a file because it throws LR out of sync with reality.  Once you turn over image management to LR, you should never manipulate your master original images outside of LR with the OS or with any other photo application.  Learn to use the functions that LR provides


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## GregJ (Mar 9, 2012)

Cletus,

I have been playing with this for 2 hours now.  Alt delete does not delete the RAW file from the windows folder.  I tried it 4 tims with trash shots and it is gone from the catalog but still sitting there niecely oin the windows folder.  It only removes it from the Catalog and Collection.  Also, marking files as rejected, and then clicking on "Delete rejected Photos" removes them from the collection and catalog, but the RAW file sits tucked away in its windows folder.  Again, the only way I find to delete the file forever is to go to "Photo" and then "Show in Exporer" and delete it like you would any file in windows (making sure you pick the right one).  If I take 1000 pictures, there are at least 25 to 50 of them that I have no interest in and want to delete them from my hard drive, not just the collection and catalog.  This delete stuff in LR is weird.  As advanced as this program is, they don't want people deleting raw files.  They just want to delete the reference to and instructions for it in their data base (the catalog).  I bet there are lots of people out there who have deleted files thinking they are gone and they still sit in their windows picture folders.  Only the reference to the file has been removed from LR.  You don't see it in the catalog or collection, but the file is still on the hard drive.


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## Jim Wilde (Mar 9, 2012)

Greg, I'm really not sure why you're having so much difficulty with this. If you are in a folder view and trawling through your pictures and come to one you want to delete, just hit the delete key on the keyboard. Up pops the dialog box, like so:




Click on 'Delete from disk' and trust me, the file IS deleted from disk and you can go look in the Recycle bin and you'll see it there.

If you are in a collection, that's not so easy....hit 'x' to reject it and move on. When you've finished with the collection, click on All Photographs then Ctrl-Backspace to delete rejected photos, you'll see the grid with the rejects and the same Confirm dialog.


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## sizzlingbadger (Mar 9, 2012)

I have complained about this since LR2. There should be an option to delete the file completely even when working in a Collection, it would remove all this confusion for beginners and also make my workflow so much easier 

I think the best compromise is to reject images instead. Then just remove rejected images before you quit LR.


UPDATE: Jim has posted the same answer while I was typing


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## clee01l (Mar 9, 2012)

sizzlingbadger said:


> I have complained about this since LR2. There should be an option to delete the file completely even when working in a Collection, it would remove all this confusion for beginners and also make my workflow so much easier
> 
> I think the best compromise is to reject images instead. Then just remove rejected images before you quit LR.
> 
> ...


I could not agree more. I can clearly distinguish between a delete operation that involves the underlying file system and a remove operation that affects the catalog and/or the collection.  It would seem that those that develop and code LR could too.


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## GregJ (Mar 9, 2012)

A-Ha!  Folder View!  I've never ever been in folder view.  I spend all my time in develop and have never once in my life ever been to folder view.  I had to look for it after you told me about it. I tried it and yep -- the actual photo is deleted in the flip of a finger.  Simple.  No problem.  It even has a nice warning box after you click delete.  But why oh why can't I do this in develop?  I am developing photos like a mad-man, get to one that needs to be deleted and I can't do it without sitching to that folder view?  And why can't I paste development settings to 20 pictures at once without going to the librray module? I want to do it in develop.  Anyway, I'm still learning LR and I'm not complaining.  It took me a year and developing 5,0000 photos to figure out that I had to go to folder view to delete a bad picture from my hard drive.  But I know it now, and that is all that matters.


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## clee01l (Mar 9, 2012)

GregJ said:


> Alt delete does not delete the RAW file from the windows folder.


 Yes, you are correct, The shortcut key (as I warned) gives no confirmation dialog. Because I have no confirmation of what gets delete or removed where, I do not use this method. And I was not really recommending it in my earlier post.  Because I no longer work in Windows, I was relying more on memory than on current knowledge.  Sorry if I wasted some of your time.  When you said "But I'll try a dry-run on what you explained."  I though you were referencing the method that I do use: Reject Flags on images in collections and Delete/Remove with a confirmation dialog in the All Photographs collection.


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## Victoria Bampton (Mar 9, 2012)

I'm skimming quickly tonight, so apologies if someone else has already said this but...

Ctrl-Alt-Shift-Delete / Cmd-Opt-Shift-Delete will delete from the hard drive from anywhere, without any warning dialog. Obviously use with care!

And AutoSync in Develop will allow you to paste to multiple photos in one go too. Or just use Sync.


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## GregJ (Mar 9, 2012)

Thanks Victoria -- CTRL-ALT-Shift-Delete requires 4 finger dexterity beyong Grand Piano virtuoso level that only a teenage game-player could manage.  I would probably end up deleting my entire hard-drive and my 30 inch screen would explode.  I think I will stick to switching to folder view and get the nice warni ng screen.  On your other point, Iwhen I'm developing and a get one right and I see that the next 15 shots on the filmstrip are repeats of the same lightig conditions, I switch to library copy settings, and paste to the picures I highlight.  It works great, but requires switching over to Library view.  I've never tried that sync or autosync thingie.  Will try now.  How do you gurus put up with such ignorance from us newbies?


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## erro (Mar 9, 2012)

Didn't anyone read my reply in #5....?


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## Victoria Bampton (Mar 9, 2012)

erro said:


> Didn't anyone read my reply in #5....?



Sorry Robert, 203 threads to catch up with, I'm in high-speed skim mode! You're right, you already said that.


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## Victoria Bampton (Mar 9, 2012)

GregJ said:


> On your other point, Iwhen I'm developing and a get one right and I see that the next 15 shots on the filmstrip are repeats of the same lightig conditions, I switch to library copy settings, and paste to the picures I highlight.  It works great, but requires switching over to Library view.  I've never tried that sync or autosync thingie.  Will try now.  How do you gurus put up with such ignorance from us newbies?



Oh yes, don't keep switching back to Library! Select all 20 in the filmstrip, making sure that the one you've corrected is the active (lightest grey border) and press sync. choose the settings you want to sync and it'll do the copy/paste in one click.


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## Jim Wilde (Mar 9, 2012)

I did Robert, which is partly why I couldn't understand the problem that Greg was having.

Greg, if you are in Develop, simply right-click on the image and select "Delete Photo" from the ensuing context menu....you will get the same Confirm dialog as per my last post, and the same result if you select 'Delete from Disk'. No need to hop back to Library just to delete an image.


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## clee01l (Mar 9, 2012)

erro said:


> Didn't anyone read my reply in #5....?


Nope, Skipped right over it. And it has the {Ctrl}{Alt}{Shift}{Del} that I was trying to remember.  I think you must have replied between the time I started my reply and when it posted.  You get extra credit for have the best right answer!


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## GregJ (Mar 9, 2012)

Jim, in develop, if I right click on a photo in the filmstrip, there is no delete option.


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## Jim Wilde (Mar 9, 2012)

This is my right-click context menu in Develop:



What is yours like?


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## GregJ (Mar 9, 2012)

Not that -- it has remove from collection instead of delete photo.  I don't know how to paste that clip in like you did.....  I have a differaqnt rt click menu in develop.  Close to that, but differant.


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## Jim Wilde (Mar 9, 2012)

OK, you're obviously still working in a collection while in Develop, so you get all the same constraints as if you were in a collection in Library. In which case you're stuck with either using the Reject flag or choosing 'Go to Folder in Library' where you can delete.


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## GregJ (Mar 9, 2012)

I know I'm sounding like a LR Rookie here, and I understand the basics of how LR works, but I'm confused on the various delete commands.....

 I know how to remove a photo from the Collection and the Catalog.  LR Help does not explain the "Delete Rejected Photos" command, and in my mind, the documentation uses the wrong terminology because what I need to do is delete photos that are bad from the actual windows folder -- delete the actual RAW file, not just the data base information in the cataloge or collection.  I have been going to "Reveal in Explorer," and deleting the files that way.  I know there has to be a way to do this in LR.  Does the remove from catalog command delete the raw file from windows?  I would think not because the catalog has nothing to do with the actual RAW file itself.  

Also -- when I updated to LR4, did my sidecar files automatically all update?  I suppose that since a completely new LR Catalog was created that all side car files were updated too - -all 5000 of thme (one per RAW file).  I want every development correction I make to every individual shot to be immeditaely automatically updated in each sidecar files, not just the catalog.  I had that set up that way in LR 3, but forgot how I did it.  I guess I could make an edit, then go to windows and check the side-car file to see if it has a new date time stamp of the moment before.......

Thanks,  Greg J


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## GregJ (Mar 9, 2012)

Jim, I'm missing something.  All my pictures are in collections. So when I am developing, I'm always in a collection.  Anyway, I guess its OK because I can delete now.


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## clee01l (Mar 10, 2012)

GregJ said:


> Jim, I'm missing something.  All my pictures are in collections. So when I am developing, I'm always in a collection.  Anyway, I guess its OK because I can delete now.


Until LR3 the collections panel was not available in Develop.  You are at least one jump ahead of most LR users.  Too many rely upon the Folders panel for organization.  I turn off my Folders Panel in the Library Left pane. I rely instead on the "All Photographs" collection to access images to be removed or deleted.  "All Photographs" is also not available in the Develop module, so a trip back to Library is required to delete image from the HD and the catalog.  

I only use the Develop module for Develop. Since it does not have a Grid view, I can not get an overall view of my collection unless I go back to the Library. 

I spend most of my time in the Library adding Titles, Captions and keywords.  The keywords need to be there before many of my Smart Collections populate.  Also Publish Services are not available in the Develop module.  You need the Library module to Publish the completed images. I would guess that I spend 70% of my time in the Library module  and 30% in Develop since it only takes a few minutes to add develop adjustments to an image and much more time to make sure each image to be published has a Title, Caption and the necessary keywords.


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