# Raw to Dng then back to orginal RAW



## Flyboy (Apr 5, 2013)

If an image is converted to DNG from RAW point A
Then
Is it possible to convert back from DNG to orginal image without any adjustments?
In other words image converted to DNG with LR 3.X adjustments made to image point A
Then
Using same image using LR 4.4 delete all adjustments, now apply new adjustments to DNG image?
Thanks for your comments.


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## clee01l (Apr 6, 2013)

Flyboy said:


> If an image is converted to DNG from RAW point A
> Then
> Is it possible to convert back from DNG to orginal image without any adjustments?
> In other words image converted to DNG with LR 3.X adjustments made to image point A
> ...


I think you are missing the concept.  LR does not make changes to image data.  A DNG file can be a RAW file just like a CR2.  All LR adjustments are made in the LR catalog and stored in the catalog. Only the parameters (Exposure=+1.24, Brightness= 50 etc.) are stored, not changes to the data.  If the parameters are stored anywhere, other than the LR catalog, they are stored in the XML section of the metadata either in the non-proprietary file like a DNG or JPEG or they are stored in a special XML file along side the proprietary RAW CR2.  If you want to see the effects of the parameters on the original image data, you need a program that can read the parameters and use an algorithm to apply these parameters to the data and display the modifications on a computer screen or write out a new file with the changes applied (export). 

If you have a CR2 file that was post processed in LR3 then the catalog has stored those adjustment parameters. In you convert your LR3 catalog to LR4, LR4 will honor those  adjustment parameters.  If you want to forget these adjustment parameters. you can press the {Reset} button and the image on the screen will revert to the original imported image and you can apply a whole new set of adjustment parameters.  These can be LR4 adjustment parameters or LR3 adjustment parameters. 

It makes little difference whether you use the original CR2 file as your starting point or one that has been converted to a DNG. The original data stored in the file is the same.


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## Flyboy (Apr 6, 2013)

Hello Lee,
Thank you for the response. Yes I am missing the concept.
I have a Fuji XPro-1 camera which uses a new design sensor called x-trans. Different than the Baylor design. Problem was software was not able to read  the parameters and use an algorithm properly to produce a decent image. Only program readily available at that time was what came with camera. Called Silky pix. Not anything like LR. So its been a bummer for raw post processing.
Time goes by then we have LR update to 4.1 or 4.3 not sure which that included XPro-1, however processing results were terrible. Then comes CO pro 7 which was big improvement as well as Silky Pix update.  Many were using these programs initially then save as tiff and back to LR. More work.
At the time I used LR, during import converted to DNG and then post. Did not save original big mistake on my part on two counts. DNG did nothing but cause additional problems as the dng images cannot be read by Silky Pix or CO pro 7. Another bummer.
With LR 4.4 we finally have a decent program able to read and use a algorithm that produces a reasonable good image.
So my thinking is if I could reverse what has been done and start over perhaps one may be able salvage this mess. So do I understand you correctly that using LR 4.4 I can do a reset, then post process as if nothing happened and benefit from LR 4.4 improvements?
Wow. This will be something.
Thanks again. Jim


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## Kiwigeoff (Apr 6, 2013)

I think that what you are suggesting should work but try it out on a sample and let us know.


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## clee01l (Apr 6, 2013)

Flyboy said:


> ... So do I understand you correctly that using LR 4.4 I can do a reset, then post process as if nothing happened and benefit from LR 4.4 improvements?


Yes.  That should be all that you need to do.  Before I got the Nikon that I have now, I had a Pentax.  The RAW images that came from the camera were written out of the camera as a DNG file format.  Some were processed in LR2.x. Others were shot and processed in LR3.x. All were reprocessed in LR 4.x .  I was able to do this by beginning new development with a press of the {Reset} button.  Sometimes I had previous processing that I was satisfied with the output from the older LR version. To preserve this I created a Virtual Copy in LR before I pressed the {Reset} button.  This way I created two separate and different develop histories in LR from the same original file.


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## Allan Olesen (Apr 6, 2013)

As I have understood this issue, the problems with the Fuji raws lies in the demosaicing.

So I guess that the important question is:
Were these files demosaiced when they were converted to DNG? If yes, I wouldn't have my hopes up, since the original mosaiced data are lost.

As far as I could google, DNG's are sometimes demosaiced, sometimes not. Apparently they are demosaiced if "Convert to linear image" is selected in the DNG converter. I assume that Lightroom has a similar setting. 

(Admitted, I don't know much about DNG. I would never touch it unless my camera wrote that format natively, and my raw converter never would write to the DNG file.)


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## sizzlingbadger (Apr 6, 2013)

The Fuji files are not de-mosiaced when converted to dng as far as I can tell, my X-E1 raf files where not de-mosiaced when using LR 4.3/4.4 to create dng files.


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## Denis de Gannes (Apr 7, 2013)

sizzlingbadger said:


> The Fuji files are not de-mosiaced when converted to dng as far as I can tell, my X-E1 raf files where not de-mosiaced when using LR 4.3/4.4 to create dng files.


I am not a user of Fuji X-E1 or a Fuji camera with a similar sensor. Also I do not use DNG processing.
That said Fuji users were critical of the of the LR 4.3, ACR 7.3 and DNG converter 7.3 processing of the raw files from the new Fuji cameras.
The latest version of LR 4.4, ACR 7.4 and DNG converter have a new process/profile to correct their concerns.
My concern is, if I have converted my raf files to DNG using LR 4.3, ACR 7.3 or DNG converter, and have deleted my original raf files, will I be able to use LR 4.4, ACR 7.4, DNG converter, to reprocess the DNG files to benefit from the new process/profile developed by Adobe.

 Or am I now left with DNG files with the LR 4.3, ACR 7.3, DNG 7.3 converter. Also what if I am using LR 3.6 or ACR 6.6?


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## sizzlingbadger (Apr 7, 2013)

The new 4.4 version will still work on your dngs converted with 4.3. Converting to dng is just putting the raw data into a new package. The new process version just reads the raw data from the dng.


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## Flyboy (Apr 7, 2013)

Sizzlingbadger comment:
The new 4.4 version will still work on your dngs converted with 4.3. Converting to dng is just putting the raw data into a new package. The new process version just reads the raw data from the dng

OP: Yes that is true, however:

Denis de Gannes comment:
My concern is, if I have converted my raf files to DNG using LR 4.3, ACR 7.3 or DNG converter, and have deleted my original raf files, will I be able to use LR 4.4, ACR 7.4, DNG converter, to reprocess the DNG files to benefit from the new process/profile developed by Adobe.

Or am I now left with DNG files with the LR 4.3, ACR 7.3, DNG 7.3 converter. Also what if I am using LR 3.6 or ACR 6.6?
Allan Olesen comment:
As I have understood this issue, the problems with the Fuji raws lies in the demosaicing. 

OP: RIGHT ON

So I guess that the important question is:
Were these files demosaiced when they were converted to DNG? If yes, I wouldn't have my hopes up, since the original mosaiced data are lost. 

OP:YOU HAVE HIT NAIL ON THE HEAD! I THINK.

As far as I could google, DNG's are sometimes demosaiced, sometimes not. Apparently they are demosaiced if "Convert to linear image" is selected in the DNG converter. I assume that Lightroom has a similar setting.

Geoff: Tried the reset routine and I really think that it resets back to file setting after first DNG convert not to orginal Raw file as imported.
How could we know for sure? Anybody? I don’t see the orginal image as it was when imported.


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## clee01l (Apr 7, 2013)

Flyboy said:


> Tried the reset routine and I really think that it resets back to file setting after first DNG convert not to orginal Raw file as imported.
> How could we know for sure? Anybody? I don’t see the orginal image as it was when imported.


This is correct. However, the original RAW image is not what you see on the camera back screen. The camera shows you a camera processed JPEG thumbnail. The original RAW data is flat, toneless and somewhat noisy. There is a preset that is called "General Zeroed" that will take the adjustment sliders back to the neutral position. This is as close as you can get to an original RAW file once it has been converted to RGB. (And it needs to be converted to RGB to be viewable.)

If you are still at LR 3.x, you will need to use the DNG converter 7.4 to convert a DNG that can be processed in the older LR version. New RAW files will have to go through ACR 7.4 or LR 4.4 or the latest DNG Converter to be handled properly.


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## Flyboy (Apr 8, 2013)

clee01l said:


> This is correct. However, the original RAW image is not what you see on the camera back screen. The camera shows you a camera processed JPEG thumbnail. The original RAW data is flat, toneless and somewhat noisy. There is a preset that is called "General Zeroed" that will take the adjustment sliders back to the neutral position. This is as close as you can get to an original RAW file once it has been converted to RGB. (And it needs to be converted to RGB to be viewable.)
> 
> If you are still at LR 3.x, you will need to use the DNG converter 7.4 to convert a DNG that can be processed in the older LR version. New RAW files will have to go through ACR 7.4 or LR 4.4 or the latest DNG Converter to be handled properly.



Understand and agree to above However what I'm trying to get a grip on is this:

My concern is, if I have converted my raf files to DNG using LR 4.3, and have deleted my original raf files, will I be able to use LR 4.4, to reprocess the DNG files to benefit from the new process/profile developed by Adobe.
Have tried the reset suggested and I do not see the image like it was in raw format before the DNG conversion. I seem to be getting the same image after the DNG conversion.
Am I now left with DNG files with the LR 4.3 conversion? It looks that way to me.

Thank you for helping me understand what the deal is. Jim


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## clee01l (Apr 8, 2013)

Flyboy said:


> ...Have tried the reset suggested and I do not see the image like it was in raw format before the DNG conversion.


I don't think you actually saw the image "like it was in raw format".  What you were looking at was a JPEG made by the camera and embedded in the header of the original RAW file. The original RAW image data is not viewable as an image because it has not been de-mosaic'd and converted to RGB.

When LR imports a RAW image, it uses ACR to demosaic the data and convert it to RGB.  It then applies a preprocess development adjustment and creates a preview.  It is my understanding that the preprocess development adjustment process for your Fuji format was flawed in earlier versions of LR4.x and was not fixed until LR4.4.  Remember LR is a non destructive editor.  The image data that was available when you first imported the file is still available. Each time you open an image on the screen LR takes the original RGB data either from ACR cache or from the original RAW file and uses an algorithm to apply each adjustment setting to the image data.  This is stored as a preview and is what gets shown on your screen When you want to export this result. LR goes back to the original image data and applies each one of the develop adjustments to the original data and produces an derivative output file in a format like JPEG or TIFF. 
Using the LR Preset called "General Zeroed"  sets all of the develop adjustments to their neutral position.  Have you done this on any one of your DNGs?  The result should be a flat, toneless and somewhat noisy image. Nothing like the JPEG that was first seen in the camera screen. Is this what you are seeing after applying "General Zeroed"  What no one can seem to say with any certainty is what happens when  your RAW images were converted to DNG.  What should happen is that the original image data may or may not be demosaic'd and converted to RGB. Either answer should not matter because before you can use the RAW data, it must be demosaic'd and converted to RGB.  Once LR4.4 has access to your demosaic'd and converted RGB image data, you have all of the power of the LR post processing development at your disposal. 

Your concerns are unnecessary hand wringing until you take action on the suggestions that I have made.


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## sizzlingbadger (Apr 8, 2013)

The raf file and dng file should look the same if viewed with the *same* develop settings in Lightroom.

The new algorithm in 4.4 will work on the dng that was converted in 4.3 as long as its not a linear dng.

If a raw file is converted to Linear DNG it must be typically "demosaiced". This may be done in Adobe's DNG Converter, or elsewhere. Once this conversion has been done, it is committed - whatever software you then use to process the Linear DNG can't exploit its own demosaicing algorithm.

Linear dng files are usually much larger and in very simplistic terms can be treated like a tiff in Lightroom. I have attached a screenshot that shows the comparative sizes.


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## Flyboy (Apr 8, 2013)

*My Thanks to everyone!*



clee01l said:


> I don't think you actually saw the image "like it was in raw format".  What you were looking at was a JPEG made by the camera and embedded in the header of the original RAW file. The original RAW image data is not viewable as an image because it has not been de-mosaic'd and converted to RGB.
> 
> When LR imports a RAW image, it uses ACR to demosaic the data and convert it to RGB.  It then applies a preprocess development adjustment and creates a preview.  It is my understanding that the preprocess development adjustment process for your Fuji format was flawed in earlier versions of LR4.x and was not fixed until LR4.4.  Remember LR is a non destructive editor.  The image data that was available when you first imported the file is still available. Each time you open an image on the screen LR takes the original RGB data either from ACR cache or from the original RAW file and uses an algorithm to apply each adjustment setting to the image data.  This is stored as a preview and is what gets shown on your screen When you want to export this result. LR goes back to the original image data and applies each one of the develop adjustments to the original data and produces an derivative output file in a format like JPEG or TIFF.
> Using the LR Preset called "General Zeroed"  sets all of the develop adjustments to their neutral position.  Have you done this on any one of your DNGs?  The result should be a flat, toneless and somewhat noisy image. Nothing like the JPEG that was first seen in the camera screen. Is this what you are seeing after applying "General Zeroed"  What no one can seem to say with any certainty is what happens when  your RAW images were converted to DNG.  What should happen is that the original image data may or may not be demosaic'd and converted to RGB. Either answer should not matter because before you can use the RAW data, it must be demosaic'd and converted to RGB.  Once LR4.4 has access to your demosaic'd and converted RGB image data, you have all of the power of the LR post processing development at your disposal.
> ...



Will try your suggestion again later today. Many thanks for helping me understand what the process is. Jim


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## Flyboy (Apr 8, 2013)

sizzlingbadger said:


> The raf file and dng file should look the same if viewed with the *same* develop settings in Lightroom.
> 
> The new algorithm in 4.4 will work on the dng that was converted in 4.3 as long as its not a linear dng.
> 
> ...


Apparently my DNG file is not Linear as it has no linear name in file ext..
Thanks for helping me understand this issue. Take care, Jim


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## Victoria Bampton (Apr 8, 2013)

Jim, just to clarify that, Nik's manually added the word linear to the file name.  That's not done automatically.

You can check whether a file's linear by going to the Metadata panel in LR and changing the little pop-up from Default to DNG.


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## Flyboy (Apr 8, 2013)

Thank you for Heads Up, Vic. I will check tonight.

PS Really nice book you have and full of goodies.


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## Denis de Gannes (Apr 8, 2013)

I made a post earlier in this thread and there have been replies which addressed most of the issues with respect to the Fuji raw files converted to DNG using LR 4.3 or DNG Converter v 7.3. 
Several years ago for a couple of months I converted my raw files to DNG at import, however there was an issue with conversion in LR 1.4, ACR 4.4 and I believe the release had to be replaced by a ACR version 4.4.1 within days of issue. I cannot remember the details but the issue created a lot of FUD in my mind and I have not use DNG files since that time.
I still have uncertainty with respect to the following
Can the files (a) that have been converted to DNG using Version 7.3 of the converter be re-processed/updated by Version 7.4 and (b) that the new improved process for the Fuji files could be used in LR 3.6?


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## Mark Sirota (Apr 9, 2013)

You can certainly reprocess them in CR7.4/LR4.4, but I suspect to get the advantage in LR3 you'd have to bake in the conversion by converting to TIFF. It may be that a linear DNG would work too; I would suggest testing.

That said, that 1.4.1/4.4.1 issue was a LONG time ago -- it's behind us. Put it out of your mind and move forward!


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## Jim Wilde (Apr 9, 2013)

Mark, is it still possible to _*optionally *_convert to linear DNG these days? I can't find an option either in Lightroom or the stand-alone converter, though I did find an Adobe help page from LR1 which included the option, but it doesn't seem to be in LR2,3 or 4.


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## Mark Sirota (Apr 9, 2013)

TNG said:


> Mark, is it still possible to _*optionally *_convert to linear DNG these days? I can't find an option either in Lightroom or the stand-alone converter, though I did find an Adobe help page from LR1 which included the option, but it doesn't seem to be in LR2,3 or 4.



Frankly, I haven't used the standalone converter in a long time, I thought it was still in there. My apologies for misleading!


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## Victoria Bampton (Apr 9, 2013)

I haven't updated this computer for a bit, but it's in 7.1 - in the preferences > compatibility pop-up, it's under Custom.


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## Jim Wilde (Apr 9, 2013)

Ah, so it is! But even by Adobe's standards that's remarkably well hidden.

Sorry Mark, me misleading you!


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## Flyboy (Apr 10, 2013)

clee01l said:


> I don't think you actually saw the image "like it was in raw format".  What you were looking at was a JPEG made by the camera and embedded in the header of the original RAW file. The original RAW image data is not viewable as an image because it has not been de-mosaic'd and converted to RGB.
> 
> When LR imports a RAW image, it uses ACR to demosaic the data and convert it to RGB.  It then applies a preprocess development adjustment and creates a preview.  It is my understanding that the preprocess development adjustment process for your Fuji format was flawed in earlier versions of LR4.x and was not fixed until LR4.4.  Remember LR is a non destructive editor.  The image data that was available when you first imported the file is still available. Each time you open an image on the screen LR takes the original RGB data either from ACR cache or from the original RAW file and uses an algorithm to apply each adjustment setting to the image data.  This is stored as a preview and is what gets shown on your screen When you want to export this result. LR goes back to the original image data and applies each one of the develop adjustments to the original data and produces an derivative output file in a format like JPEG or TIFF.
> Using the LR Preset called "General Zeroed"  sets all of the develop adjustments to their neutral position.  Have you done this on any one of your DNGs?  The result should be a flat, toneless and somewhat noisy image. Nothing like the JPEG that was first seen in the camera screen. Is this what you are seeing after applying "General Zeroed"  What no one can seem to say with any certainty is what happens when  your RAW images were converted to DNG.  What should happen is that the original image data may or may not be demosaic'd and converted to RGB. Either answer should not matter because before you can use the RAW data, it must be demosaic'd and converted to RGB.  Once LR4.4 has access to your demosaic'd and converted RGB image data, you have all of the power of the LR post processing development at your disposal.
> ...


Was able to try your suggestion again and sure enough LR4.4 will do as you say. After reset image is flat, toneless and noisy. After post and using Nik Collection I am now happy with image.
Thanks to Lee and everyone else for a outstanding result.
Take care. Jim


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