# Giving back to the community, but how?



## Selwin (Jan 7, 2015)

Hi all,

In the past years, I've been giving advice to LR users that came here for help. My advice generally aims to get users to organise their photo library as intended and designed by Adobe: usage of keywords rather than renaming folders, so that they can benefit from the powerful features like smart collections and publish services.

My personal motivation is to return the favour to this community, a favour that was given to me and that has helped me master Lightroom when I joined this forum. I like helping people discover great things (about LR or anything really) and be happier in their lives.

Sometimes my advice has been quite straightforward and directive. Recently, after helping out a neighbour with her LR library, I've come to think about this approach. This neighbour, who has had a serious brain concussion about 5 years ago, tries to focus on camera operation primarily, but she enjoys the editing features of Lightroom. Having to learn about keywords (granted, that's not that difficult), (smart) collections or even publish services is just too much for her to learn all at once, so I encouraged her to just continue with her ways of using LR. She renames her folders and she doesn't use keywords that much. She's creating wonderful images though.

This experience makes me wonder is we should *always* try to push newbies towards the ideal LR operation, as their needs may differ from ours. Maybe they don't want to spend that much time to fully grasp LR but do appreciate *some* features and be happy with that. In my opinion this will also hold true for people without brain concussions.

Thus: different advice approach for different user types?

I would very much appreciate your thoughts on this matter.


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## tspear (Jan 7, 2015)

I do not use keywords. 
I use folder structures. 
I use ratings.
I use color labels.
I use GPS Coordinates.
I use camera settings.
I use the develop module (some parts of it, still have a lot to learn)

The only thing I would like to add keyword wise is people's names. And at this point I am too lazy, and I am waiting/hoping Adobe adds facial recognition.
I have looked at a few keyword lexicons, and some examples that others use for it. So far, I just do not have those requirements.

At the end of the day, taking the time to add keywords, and then build collection sets and collections and smart collections takes more effort and time then just placing the images in folders. 

Tim


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## clee01l (Jan 7, 2015)

We have an expression, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink."

I think the first responsibility is to answer the question asked.  If the question is "How do I rename my folders from the Date names that LR gave them to words and phrases?",  The the first answer is to explain how to import with user named files either by using the Add option or by importing to a user named folder instead of an automatically created folder based upon the image create date.  Only after that question has been answered should you introduce the OP to alternatives that might be more efficient.

Having succeeded in answering the OP's question and provided the recommended LR approach, you are done unless the OP is responsive to trying a different approach.


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## tspear (Jan 7, 2015)

Is it a question of leading a horse to water or different strokes for different folks?
I do not have the requirements for the sophisticated structure that keywording can provide. 
I have by year, then event and sometimes sub-event for a long trip. This is handled without issue by folders. Give me the steps to add the same information in keywords and create the associated collections. (hint: it is a lot more).

Tim


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## Jimmsp (Jan 7, 2015)

Selwin said:


> Hi all,
> 
> .........My advice generally aims to get users to organise their photo library as intended and designed by Adobe: usage of keywords rather than renaming folders, so that they can benefit from the powerful features like smart collections and publish services.
> 
> ...



I am of the opinion that the advice needs to fit the person. For instance, I rename my folders, as I tend to think about things like events and people, not dates. However I do use key words fairly extensively; and some collections. I also don't use Lightroom exclusively, and I organize my photos so that I can find them easily with other software packages as well.

But when I give advice, I tend to first understand the person, then I present my advice accordingly. I will give my reasons for the advice. At the same time, I try to present the options and alternatives that the person might have, and the advantages and disadvantages (as I see them) of different approaches. For instance, my advice to a active professional would be a lot different than that to a retired person who only takes 50 photos a week of birds and grandchildren.

I will put my approach to the test soon. I live in a retirement community and I will soon present a class called "An Intro to Lightroom". I expect to address these topics in a Q&A session.


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## Selwin (Jan 7, 2015)

Valid points, thank you folks. Apparently this matter is not in my head only. I feel I'm on the right track. More opinions welcome


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## Victoria Bampton (Jan 9, 2015)

Yeah, very good points guys. Because everyone thinks their own workflow is best (otherwise why would they be using it?!), it's very easy to become dogmatic.  In some cases, the user doesn't even know there's a different way, so asking questions and providing an alternative to consider can be just the information they need.  That depends on each individual.  But at the end of the day, even if we know they're wrong , we can't say "you should" because we don't know the whole story.


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## johnbeardy (Jan 10, 2015)

I'll put this a little less subtly than I think one can apply in practice, and we do always need to assess the individual user's capability, but I feel one has to be a bit more "directive"....

To pick up on Victoria's comment that "everyone thinks their own workflow is best", sometimes it is. Part of Lightroom's ethos is to get away from Photoshop's tens of ways of getting to the same end result. Even where there is more than one way to accomplish something, usually one method is objectively the best way. We often know it is so, and we can't really hide behind "Whatever works for you" or "YMMV" when we have failed to identify the particular circumstances and requirements that make a certain workflow the right one.

Secondly, people do want clarity. Getting a clear answer is a quick win for them  at this stage of their learning process, and it's only afterwards that some of them benefit from more nuanced answers and explanations of alternatives.

Third, one should try to give answers that move beyond the immediate question, like a chess player who doesn't react to his opponent moving that pawn but anticipates what he's going to do next with other pieces. I have a real beef with one particular individual (not usually here!) who seems to specialise in helping people do things they shouldn't. The most helpful answer to "How do I do X?" isn't to answer it directly with "This is how and I'll write a plugin to help you" - it's "Don't go that way because you're walking off a ****ing cliff". We often know that the user is eager to do something that's objectively wrong, and we have to make sure the right message is heard above the short-sighted waffle. 

So don't be afraid to give the right answer and say it clearly!


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## tspear (Jan 10, 2015)

John,

The problem is that there are massive assumptions made about how and or why something should be done. Great example is keywords. Why do it? I am an amateur/hobby photographer. I do family events, trips, memories. I am not into landscapes, macro.... or other artistic endeavors. As such, I have very simple requirements for organization. Year, event, sub event if long running. Folders work perfectly for my requirements. Sure, I could use keywords. But it takes a lot more effort for no additional gain.

(And yes, I read your book, I liked it. Very well done, but I do not use everything in there and probably never will)

Tim


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## Anthony.Ralph (Jan 10, 2015)

With regard to keywords and keywording...

Although professionals (and others) may need to place many keywords in an image file, many people, I suspect, only need a few. Typically keywords such as "family", "place" and "holiday" for example can be entered during the import phase, all in one go, to every image being imported. Very minimum effort surely and very useful  too in hunting for specific images amongst the many on file, particularly many months in the future.

This does not preclude using folders, but adds huge flexibility with, as I said above, virtually no effort. What's not to like?

Anthony.


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## Victoria Bampton (Jan 10, 2015)

tspear said:


> I do family events, trips, memories.



Ok, an example where they come into their own:  my Grandad died a few years ago, and we needed to find a good photo of him quite quickly.  No problem, just search on his keyword and immediately have access to all of the photos of him.  No need to search back through thousands of photos to find them.


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## tspear (Jan 10, 2015)

Victoria Bampton said:


> Ok, an example where they come into their own:  my Grandad died a few years ago, and we needed to find a good photo of him quite quickly.  No problem, just search on his keyword and immediately have access to all of the photos of him.  No need to search back through thousands of photos to find them.



Yah, where is facial recognition software? I mean every other DAM tool has it. 
If Lr does not add it in the next few years, I might go back and keyword people in the pictures. 
For the moment, I am focused on location tagging old photos and learning to use more developer features of Lr.

Tim


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## johnbeardy (Jan 10, 2015)

tspear said:


> John,
> 
> The problem is that there are massive assumptions made about how and or why something should be done. Great example is keywords. Why do it? I am an amateur/hobby photographer. I do family events, trips, memories. I am not into landscapes, macro.... or other artistic endeavors. As such, I have very simple requirements for organization. Year, event, sub event if long running. Folders work perfectly for my requirements. Sure, I could use keywords. But it takes a lot more effort for no additional gain.
> 
> ...



I guess you mean the workflow book, Tim. If I remember correctly, I wrote about doing as much keywording _as you consider worthwhile_, and then about ways to do it as efficiently as possible. So while I don't think it's too big an assumption to think everyone should add _some_ keywords, I don't think one can be as dogmatic about how much or how anally one should keyword.

One other point is that one can't assume a big difference between how amateurs and professionals use organisational tools. The amateur is often truly professional in his/her own field, while the "pro' is simply better at making a living from photography. Some pros add no keywords, others can't afford not to do so.

John


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## johnbeardy (Jan 10, 2015)

Also, Tim, in that book I started with a point I should have made in the above post - clear or dogmatic advice often makes the reader react, think through their needs, and decide to do the opposite of what I advised. That's great!


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## Tony Jay (Jan 10, 2015)

johnbeardy said:


> Also, Tim, in that book I started with a point I should have made in the above post - clear or dogmatic advice often makes the reader react, think through their needs, and decide to do the opposite of what I advised. That's great!


Yes!
It is much better to make an informed decision than one based on ignorance or biased dogmatism.

Tony Jay


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## tspear (Jan 11, 2015)

johnbeardy said:


> Also, Tim, in that book I started with a point I should have made in the above post - clear or dogmatic advice often makes the reader react, think through their needs, and decide to do the opposite of what I advised. That's great!



True, you did make that point in the book. And, yes I like to make informed choices; I like to understand why people make certain choices and not just follow blindly.
I just currently do not do any keywords. Only ones I want at some point (I think) will be facial recognition.

Tim


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