# Focus point in LRCC ?



## Antonio Correia (Nov 12, 2018)

I would like to have the focus points when looking at my photographs in Library module, for example.
I think it would be very interesting... Any plug-in available, please  ?
Thank you !


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## GingeraMan (Nov 12, 2018)

This always seemed odd to me too..
I convert everything to DNG so I assume this would be lost though.

What camera or RAW files are you using? 

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## MarkNicholas (Nov 12, 2018)

I believe that the software that comes with your camera will provide the focus points. However, be aware that if you focus and then compose, the  indicated focus point will not be accurate.  Also I only use the central focus point as don't want my camera deciding on what to focus on.


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## Johan Elzenga (Nov 12, 2018)

There are two Lightroom Classic plugins that can do this, although I'm not sure if they work with every camera.
Show Focus Points Plugin for Lightroom
musselwhizzle/Focus-Points
Lightroom CC does not support plugins.


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## Johan Elzenga (Nov 12, 2018)

MarkNicholas said:


> Also I only use the central focus point as don't want my camera deciding on what to focus on.


You may want to reconsider that if you use a really fast lens with shallow DOF. Using the central focus point with the 'focus, then recompose' technique will lead to back focus. Focus + recompose = back focus | Johan W. Elzenga


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## Paul_DS256 (Nov 12, 2018)

JohanElzenga said:


> There are two Lightroom Classic plugins that can do this, although I'm not sure if they work with every camera.
> Show Focus Points Plugin for Lightroom
> musselwhizzle/Focus-Points
> Lightroom CC does not support plugins.



I think there are also others that you can Google for based on your camea


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## Paul_DS256 (Nov 12, 2018)

MarkNicholas said:


> I believe that the software that comes with your camera will provide the focus points. However, be aware that if you focus and then compose, the  indicated focus point will not be accurate.  Also I only use the central focus point as don't want my camera deciding on what to focus on.



Mark, I'd suggest stretching yourself and working with different focal points to support the composition. Sometimes I focus on the centre but many times my focal point is in another area following the rule-of-thirds.


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## Zenon (Nov 12, 2018)

I shoot with Canon and set up the multi-controller so I can move the AF point around to minimize/eliminate focus/recompose. Also both my bodies have AF area selection buttons to quickly change  AF modes. I use zone AF often for flying birds. Multiple AF points have their place and are very effective in the right situation. I also do it just to mix things up a little when I'm shooting.  I'm set up to toggle back and forth between one AF point and zone with the back focus buttons.


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## Antonio Correia (Nov 12, 2018)

The musselwhizzle/Focus-Points works nice even if we have to run the Plug-in Extra from Library.
And there is an extra, a bonus: it also returns a detailed metadata. Good.
Thank you *JohanElzenga *! That was a big help ! 
- Side note and focusing and recomposing -
Focus and recompose is something one should never do. Period.
It is however, a very common advise even from professional ! They are wrong !


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## MarkNicholas (Nov 13, 2018)

JohanElzenga said:


> You may want to reconsider that if you use a really fast lens with shallow DOF. Using the central focus point with the 'focus, then recompose' technique will lead to back focus. Focus + recompose = back focus | Johan W. Elzenga



Thanks Johan but I'll pass on that. The outer focus points on my Canon 6D are not as accurate as the center point and are fiddly to select, I only have one lens faster than f/4 and rarely shoot with a narrow DOF and if I do would not recompose.


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## MarkNicholas (Nov 13, 2018)

DS256 said:


> Mark, I'd suggest stretching yourself and working with different focal points to support the composition. Sometimes I focus on the centre but many times my focal point is in another area following the rule-of-thirds.



Thanks but the outer focus points on my camera are not as accurate as the center focus point. I prefer to concentrate on composition rather than fiddling about trying different focus points.


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## GingeraMan (Nov 13, 2018)

Same here.. I focus on the point then compose..

Only gets tricky if metering and focal points differ. 

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## MarkNicholas (Nov 13, 2018)

GingeraMan said:


> Same here.. I focus on the point then compose..
> 
> Only gets tricky if metering and focal points differ.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk



Exactly. That is why I have set up my camera up to focus using the back* button rather than the shutter release button. So my work flow is to focus on the subject using the center point (using the back* button) > recompose to then fix exposure with a half press of the shutter release button > recompose again and take the shot.

Sorry to the OP if this has gone a little off topic but it was a good conversation starter


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## GingeraMan (Nov 13, 2018)

On topic and a good tip, thanks! 

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## GingeraMan (Nov 13, 2018)

Does DNG strip raw files of specifically info like that 

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## Johan Elzenga (Nov 13, 2018)

MarkNicholas said:


> Exactly. That is why I have set up my camera up to focus using the back* button rather than the shutter release button. So my work flow is to focus on the subject using the center point (using the back* button) > recompose to then fix exposure with a half press of the shutter release button > recompose again and take the shot.


Read that link again that I gave you. Using the back button has nothing to do with this. What happens when you focus and then recompose is that by recomposing you _rotate_ the focal plane. And as a result your focussing is now incorrect (you focussed too far). You may be 'saved by the bell' or in this case 'saved by the DOF' so you don't really see it, but it is incorrect nevertheless. Use a very fast lens at full lens opening and you will see it.


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## Antonio Correia (Nov 13, 2018)

JohanElzenga said:


> ...You may be 'saved by the bell' or in this case 'saved by the DOF' so you don't really see it, but it is incorrect nevertheless. Use a very fast lens at full lens opening and you will see it.


Absolutely !


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## tspear (Nov 13, 2018)

JohanElzenga said:


> Read that link again that I gave you. Using the back button has nothing to do with this. What happens when you focus and then recompose is that by recomposing you _rotate_ the focal plane. And as a result your focussing is now incorrect (you focussed too far). You may be 'saved by the bell' or in this case 'saved by the DOF' so you don't really see it, but it is incorrect nevertheless. Use a very fast lens at full lens opening and you will see it.


Seen it, but never figured out why. Nice summary in your blog.

Thanks,

Tim

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## MarkNicholas (Nov 14, 2018)

JohanElzenga said:


> Read that link again that I gave you. Using the back button has nothing to do with this. What happens when you focus and then recompose is that by recomposing you _rotate_ the focal plane. And as a result your focussing is now incorrect (you focussed too far). You may be 'saved by the bell' or in this case 'saved by the DOF' so you don't really see it, but it is incorrect nevertheless. Use a very fast lens at full lens opening and you will see it.


Johan. I was replying to Gingeraman about tricky metering when recomposing. I was not replying to your reply on the rotation of the focal plane during recomposing.


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## MarkNicholas (Nov 14, 2018)

Antonio Correia said:


> Absolutely !


You wont see it when shooting a landscape 1 mile away at f/11.


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## Johan Elzenga (Nov 14, 2018)

MarkNicholas said:


> You wont see it when shooting a landscape 1 mile away at f/11.


Correct, but besides the point. You may not even see it when you are shooting a model 20 meters away at f/5.6, but the idea that using the center focus point and then recomposing would be more accurate than using a peripheral focus point is false. If that is true with your camera, then your camera needs to be repaired. You can come up with all kinds of reasons why this technique won’t ruin your photos in certain circumstances, and these may all be valid reasons, but that doesn’t change the fact that this technique is fundamentally flawed and based on a lack of understanding of what actually happens when you use it.


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## MarkNicholas (Nov 14, 2018)

JohanElzenga said:


> Correct, but besides the point. You may not even see it when you are shooting a model 20 meters away at f/5.6, but the idea that using the center focus point and then recomposing would be more accurate than using a peripheral focus point is false. If that is true with your camera, then your camera needs to be repaired. You can come up with all kinds of reasons why this technique won’t ruin your photos in certain circumstances, and these may all be valid reasons, but that doesn’t change the fact that this technique is fundamentally flawed and based on a lack of understanding of what actually happens when you use it.


Johan, I never said that the focus would be more accurate using the centre focus point and recomposing than using the outer points without recomposing. What I said was that centre focus point on my camera is more accurate than the outer focus points. It is also significantly better at focusing in low light than the outer points and that is why I exclusively use it. I believe on this occasion you have missed the point


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## Johan Elzenga (Nov 14, 2018)

Really? What you said when I pointed out the link was:


MarkNicholas said:


> Thanks Johan but I'll pass on that. The outer focus points on my Canon 6D are not as accurate as the center point and are fiddly to select, I only have one lens faster than f/4 and rarely shoot with a narrow DOF and if I do would not recompose.



And also:


MarkNicholas said:


> Thanks but the outer focus points on my camera are not as accurate as the center focus point. I prefer to concentrate on composition rather than fiddling about trying different focus points.



And:


MarkNicholas said:


> Also I only use the central focus point as don't want my camera deciding on what to focus on.



That strongly suggests that you think that using the center point and then recomposing is better, or at least as good as, using the less accurate outer points. Maybe you did not say that with so many words, but it does suggest it IMHO.

Enough said. I have no desire to continue this discussion till eternity. These are your photos, not mine, so do as you please. Just be careful about advising other people to do the same, because that is bad advice.


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## MarkNicholas (Nov 15, 2018)

JohanElzenga said:


> Really? What you said when I pointed out the link was:
> 
> 
> And also:
> ...



Johan,  An issue was raised (focus and exposure) and I have merely stated what I do based on my 40 years of taking photos. If others wish to give it a try then that is up to them. If they don't like it then I am sure they will try something else.

Your advice could be quite misleading. Can you please clarify your comments on the focus and recomposing technique (as you call it). Are you advocating that this technique should never be used otherwise it may ruin your photo ? I would hate to think that anyone who read this will refrain from this technique because they have been told it may ruin their photo.

Can you please also clarify your comments on when the the focal plane rotation phenomena is likely to occur and whether it in fact only applies in certain limited shooting scenarios, i.e. with fast lenses that are wide open, and with a close subject with resulting shallow DOF ?


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## Johan Elzenga (Nov 15, 2018)

Did you read that link at all, or did you just look at it briefly? The page explains that the focal plane rotation *always* happens if you use this technique, and so I indeed advocate that you should not use it at all, unless you have no choice because the point you want to focus on falls outside the range of focus points. In that case I would suggest you use the _outer_ focus point for your initial focussing, so you have to recompose as little as possible.

So if you focus and recompose, you create a situation where the camera has focussed _behind_ the subject, period. Whether or not you clearly see this (and so the photo is ruined) depends on a few factors, like the DOF and the subject distance, but the fact remains that focussing is _not_ correct when you use this technique. 

I agree that in many cases you may never notice it, because of the subject distance and/or because you used an adequate DOF to hide the effect of your back focussing. However, there is one thing you should remember as well. DOF is not about _absolute_ sharpness, it's about _*acceptable*_ sharpness. The only part of your photo that is _really_ sharp is the focal plane. If you make a large print of your photo, and people watch it from the normal distance, they see the DOF that you intended. But if they go closer to have a good look at some details, then the DOF becomes smaller. That means that what may look like a subject in focus when viewed from the standard viewing distance, may become slightly blurry when they get closer. That's because you used a technique that placed the focal plane _behind_ the subject. For an explanation of DOF see Understanding Depth of Field in Photography


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## Antonio Correia (Nov 12, 2018)

I would like to have the focus points when looking at my photographs in Library module, for example.
I think it would be very interesting... Any plug-in available, please  ?
Thank you !


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## MarkNicholas (Nov 15, 2018)

I think I will just leave it there.


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## tspear (Nov 15, 2018)

@JohanElzenga

I have a Canon 6D, I know from experience (subjectively, never measured) that the center focus point is faster and more accurate compared to one of the outer points.  So when doing a quick picture, I will use focus recompose when the subject is farther away, the DoF is deep enough to get an acceptable picture.
I read somewhere a loooong time ago, focus recompose is good for quick shots. However, if you have time you should always use a focus point as close to your subject as possible before recomposing. Never paid attention to why until now.

So last night I played around with my camera a little to see if I could determine a test which works better for my camera. Center focus recompose, or switch to outer focus point.  I even tried to time it....
I could not find a "repeatable" test; or one that felt/looks valid.
Any suggestions?


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## Johan Elzenga (Nov 15, 2018)

Many cameras have a faster and more accurate center point than the outer points. I don't have the Canon EOS-6D, but I do have the Canon EOS-1D X and I'm sure it's the same with that camera. I don't believe however that the difference in accuracy is so large that using an outer point would be worse than the back focussing mistake you will make if you use the center point and then recompose. I'm 100% sure it's the opposite, but I have never done any testing. If you want to test it, then what you need to use is a fast lens at full opening, and a subject distance that causes a shallow DOF to begin with (so fairly close).


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## Umberto Cocca (Nov 15, 2018)

Even if theoretically correct, I tend to disagree with you Johan. One should test for realistic condition use. Of course it is a major problem in macro photography, and it could be in portraiture. But I believe it is negligible in landscaping where focusing distances are in the orders of meters and the aperture is around F/9 (just an example).

And even if so, I struggle to find iconic masterpieces where a non-sharp focus totally destroys a photo (does Capa ring a bell?). Message is in the emotion, not in the pixel. 

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## Johan Elzenga (Nov 15, 2018)

I'm going to stop replying, because this discussion is leading nowhere and would only be repeating myself. *I have said several times that there are many circumstances where the effect still is real, but where you don't see it because of the DOF*. And then somebody says "I don't agree with you, because you often don't see it because of the DOF"...


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## Zenon (Nov 15, 2018)

Been a long time since I pulled this out of my bookmarks.     

Photo Technique #006 @Digital Outback Photo


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## richard b (Nov 11, 2020)

i am interested in adding the view focus point capability to my LR and see that the thread is 2018. Simple question; is the thread still current please?


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