# Confusion with dimensions to Export to an On-line Lab



## free2australian (Apr 16, 2012)

Hullo


I have Landscape and a few Portrait sizes.  I have a Mac Computer and Lightroom 3 and my Camera is a Nikon D700

I am wishing to have an output photo  print of 16 X 20 inches  
                                                         10 X 10
                                                         10 X 13
                                                         20 X24
                                                          8 X 10

The on-line Lab sent me a pixel Dimension Chart - see attachment.

From my interpretation is  that             16 X 20 inches   =  4800 X 6000

10 X 10             =  3000 X 3000
                                                         10 X 13             =  3000 X 3000
                                                         20 X24              =  6000 X 7200
                                                           8X 10              =  2400 X 3000



So far have got my niggers in a knot - my left brain does not work only my right brain.

The Labs requirements  are :

.jpg or .tiff file type
300 dpi resolution
8-bit color depth
sRGB color space
​
They cannot help me as with Lightroom and they only help with Photoshop dimensions.

My question is what width and height dimensions for each of the output print  size?

and what Aspect ratio do I specify?

Do I concern myself with long Edge or short Edge for my requirements?

I have attached the export window for Lightroom as well as the Aspect ratio window  for illustration.

I would be grateful if you can keep it as simple as possible - I will be completely lost with technical terms - I have read lots of stuff on the web but each information confuses me  even more.

Thank you


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## Mark Sirota (Apr 16, 2012)

The simple solution is to crop (in Develop) to the matching aspect ratio for your print:
16x20 = 4:5
10x10 = 1:1
10x13 = 10:13
20x24 = 5:6
8x10 = 4:5

Then in Export, set the resolution to 300 PPI (pixels per inch), choose "Dimensions", and specify the dimensions in inches rather than in pixels.  Don't worry about portrait v. landscape, that should take care of itself.


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## erro (Apr 16, 2012)

Or don't care about the PPI-setting. Any decent lab ought to know that PPI doesn't matter. What matters is that you have enough pixels.

Crop to get the desired look and/or proportions. Save (export) without resizing, since that keeps as many pixels as possible. Send to the lab.


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## Mark Sirota (Apr 16, 2012)

Robert's right, that will work too.  It's simpler, but there are two downsides to letting the lab resize for you rather than resizing yourself:

1. You don't know how good a job they'll do compared to Lightroom.  Lightroom's resizing algorithm is quite good and quite smart, and has the advantage (if you're working with a raw file) of being able to resize in linear space (before gamma correction).  Whether it makes a visible difference is debatable, but in theory Lightroom should be able to do better than the lab can.

2. You can't take proper advantage of Lightroom's excellent export sharpening because it takes the export resolution into account, as final sharpening should be done after resizing, not before.


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## erro (Apr 16, 2012)

The best way to find out which method is the best is often to test for yourself. Use the same photo and send in a few different versions to the lab:
- one with all pixels
- one resized with some sharpening
- one resized with some other sharpening

And see if you see any difference.


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## RikkFlohr (Apr 16, 2012)

erro said:


> The best way to find out which method is the best is often to test for yourself. Use the same photo and send in a few different versions to the lab:
> - one with all pixels
> ...
> 
> And see if you see any difference.



Just bandwidth...


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## erro (Apr 16, 2012)

RikkFlohr said:


> Just bandwidth...



?????


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## Mark Sirota (Apr 16, 2012)

Rikk is saying that all you get out of sending the full-size original is a waste of bandwidth.

I disagree, there is a measure of simplicity from not needing to understand or deal with the sizing stuff, at the expense of bandwidth and a very slight loss of quality.


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## erro (Apr 16, 2012)

Mark Sirota said:


> Rikk is saying that all you get out of sending the full-size original is a waste of bandwidth.
> 
> I disagree, there is a measure of simplicity from not needing to understand or deal with the sizing stuff, at the expense of bandwidth and a very slight loss of quality.



I agree with Mark. I have seen only too often people giving advice on how to get the optimal print, with the result that the person who asked only gets more confused. Simple is often good enough. And, if you feel the need, then try some different versions yourself. Bandwith is cheap these days.


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## RikkFlohr (Apr 16, 2012)

You've never had two hundred 4x6 proofs made from a Canon 5DMKII over dial-up internet?


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## free2australian (Apr 16, 2012)

Thanks for your responses

I have a Landscape  in order for the photo not  to be cut off when cropping I need to put in a ratio of ratio of 1X1.618.  What dimensions in relation to width and Height would I put in and what size print will it end up as?


Sue


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## erro (Apr 16, 2012)

You should crop with the same proportions as you plan to print. Is the print paper also 1X1.618?


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## erro (Apr 16, 2012)

RikkFlohr said:


> You've never had two hundred 4x6 proofs made from a Canon 5DMKII over dial-up internet?



Dial-up? That is so 1990's....


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## free2australian (Apr 17, 2012)

I doubt whether one can get a paper size 1X1.618?

At the moment I have put aside that idea

I am now looking at a 16X20 print - which I have cropped to 16X20 .  Checking the information on the Photo ( which I will sent in Jpeg to the Lab) the Dimensions are 6000X4800. 


 Do I insert for the width and Height in export window 6000X4800? or 16.000 X20.000?

According to the Pixel Dimension chart the Lab sent me the optimal amount of pixels desired  for a 16 X 20 print is 6000 X4800.

Sue


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## b_gossweiler (Apr 17, 2012)

Sue,

In this case you can either enter 6000x4800 pixels, or 20"x16" with 300DPI in _*Dimensions*_, which is both the same. You could also only enter 6000 pixels of 20" at 300DPI for the _*long edge*_, the short edge will be calculated based on your crop.



free2australian said:


> I doubt whether one can get a paper size 1X1.618?



I have seen labs where you can set one edge as fix, and they'll do odd ratios with whatever you send them (i.e. panos).

Beat


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## free2australian (Apr 17, 2012)

I have another photo which I have cropped in Lightroom at 10X10 ratio which according to the Lab's Pixel Dimension chart  10X10 = 3000 X 3000.   However  Lightroom  will not allow 3000X3000 -  allows 

 Width & Height  216.66 X 26.256   If I put in Long edge of 3000 in the 3000 remains in red  ( I goes it is in red as this size is not accepted)   Seems to be a 10X10 print  within Lightroom at 3000X3000 will not happen?     

 In these circumstance how will a Photo  fit a  10X10  frame?

Sue


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## clee01l (Apr 17, 2012)

free2australian said:


> I have another photo which I have cropped in Lightroom at 10X10 ratio which according to the Lab's Pixel Dimension chart  10X10 = 3000 X 3000.   However  Lightroom  will not allow 3000X3000 -  allows
> 
> Width & Height  216.66 X 26.256   If I put in Long edge of 3000 in the 3000 remains in red  ( I goes it is in red as this size is not accepted)   Seems to be a 10X10 print  within Lightroom at 3000X3000 will not happen?
> 
> ...


Your sensor (in Pixels) for your D700 is • 4256 x 2832 [12.1 MP],  You do not have 3000 pixels in the short side dimension.  The largest you can do using the 1:1 crop ratio is 2832X2832. Usually the 300 ppi is an optimum.  You can produce a  great quality 10"X10" print from an image that is printed at 283ppi. 
 I would be very surprised if your print lab would refuse to accept an order for a 10"X10" if all you have is 2832 pixels on a side.   Can you provide a web link to the print lab site?  I think we can better advise if their printing requirements are posted.


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## free2australian (Apr 17, 2012)

The  Lab is called " Nations Photo Lab "   http://www.nationsphotolab.com/

In relation to the  10X10  - 216.66 X 26.256  Lightroom would not export to a folder I set up on my desktop -  Is there a reason for this?


Sue


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## erro (Apr 17, 2012)

Physical size is one thing, proportions is another.

Your D700 takes photos in 3:2 proportions (3/2=1,5 meaning the long side is 1,5 times that of the sort side). They are 4256 x 2832 pixels. 4256/2832=1,5. This will for example fit perfectly, without cropping, onto a paper that is 15*10 cm (15/10=1,5). Or a 6"*4" paper (6/4=1,5). Or a 30*20 cm paper (30/20=1,5). And so on.

If you want to print on a paper that has other proportions, say a 10"*8" (10/8=1,25) your photo wont fit since it is of 1,5 proportions. Or the other way around: if you have cropped your photo to another proportion (say 1X1.618, 1,618/1=1,618) and want to print on a 1,5 proportions paper like 6"*4". Then you have three choices:
1: print anyway, telling the lab to "fit" the image on the paper, meaning you will get white borders at top/bottom or right/left
2: print anyway, telling the lab to "fill" the paper with the image, meaning the whole paper will be filled but the lab will crop off parts of the image at top/bottom or right/left
3: crop the image yourself to the same proportions as the paper, then send it to the lab, and you'll get a perfect fit


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## erro (Apr 17, 2012)

free2australian said:


> In relation to the  10X10  - 216.66 X 26.256  Lightroom would not export to a folder I set up on my desktop -  Is there a reason for this?



10X10 is a perfect square. 216.66 X 26.256 is not a square, it is a very elongated format where the long side is 8,25 times longer than the short side. Those two wont play well together.


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## b_gossweiler (Apr 17, 2012)

I suspect you tried to put in 3000 inches for the long edge, not 3000 pixels. There is no problem entering an export size larger than the cropped dimensions of your image, LR will perfrom an up-rez of your image, as long as you don't have "Do not enlage" checked.

Beat


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## free2australian (Apr 17, 2012)

What do you advise for dimensions  for Lightroom output for a 10X10


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## free2australian (Apr 17, 2012)

Also what dimensions  for  11 X 14 in  and 12X12?

Sue


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## erro (Apr 17, 2012)

If you by "10X10" mean a square 10-inch print, then at 300 PPI that would mean 10*300=3000x3000 pixels. 11X14 would be 11*300 X 14*300, thus 3300x4200 pixels.

Do your images have that many pixels? If not, then either you or the lab has to up-size the image. And as with all other things, only you can decide which is best. And if you do it yourself, if it is woth the effort doing it? Or if you could just simply crop your image to the desired proportions and send it off, withóut any further resizing.

Are you understanding all the aspects of physical size versus proportions? do you understand the relation between PPI, physical size and number of pixels?


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## clee01l (Apr 17, 2012)

free2australian said:


> The  Lab is called " Nations Photo Lab "   http://www.nationsphotolab.com/
> 
> In relation to the  10X10  - 216.66 X 26.256  Lightroom would not export to a folder I set up on my desktop -  Is there a reason for this?
> 
> ...


The lab requirements are 180ppi *minimum* and 300ppi as *optimal*. So 300ppi is desired but not required. http://www.nationsphotolab.com/pixelchart.html

Are you cropping in LR? or are you just trying to fix a size on export?   A  JPEG for a 10"X10" print can be any number of Pixels on a side as long as the side is at least 1800 pixels. 

Here is an example of a crop that is ~1800 Pixels on each side. I can export this cropped image without specifying anything on the Export dialog in the Image sizing section and the resulting JPEG can be printed at 10"X10" by your print lab.  Ideally, I would want to send a higher resolution than 180ppi to get a better quality print.  However 180ppi will produce an acceptable print that will look great when viewed at a normal viewing distance.


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## free2australian (Apr 16, 2012)

Hullo


I have Landscape and a few Portrait sizes.  I have a Mac Computer and Lightroom 3 and my Camera is a Nikon D700

I am wishing to have an output photo  print of 16 X 20 inches  
                                                         10 X 10
                                                         10 X 13
                                                         20 X24
                                                          8 X 10

The on-line Lab sent me a pixel Dimension Chart - see attachment.

From my interpretation is  that             16 X 20 inches   =  4800 X 6000

10 X 10             =  3000 X 3000
                                                         10 X 13             =  3000 X 3000
                                                         20 X24              =  6000 X 7200
                                                           8X 10              =  2400 X 3000



So far have got my niggers in a knot - my left brain does not work only my right brain.

The Labs requirements  are :

.jpg or .tiff file type
300 dpi resolution
8-bit color depth
sRGB color space
​
They cannot help me as with Lightroom and they only help with Photoshop dimensions.

My question is what width and height dimensions for each of the output print  size?

and what Aspect ratio do I specify?

Do I concern myself with long Edge or short Edge for my requirements?

I have attached the export window for Lightroom as well as the Aspect ratio window  for illustration.

I would be grateful if you can keep it as simple as possible - I will be completely lost with technical terms - I have read lots of stuff on the web but each information confuses me  even more.

Thank you


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## free2australian (Apr 17, 2012)

Would it be possible for you to give me the Dimensions needed for a 10 X 10 Print?


Sue


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## erro (Apr 17, 2012)

Excuse me but... do you actually read our replies?


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## clee01l (Apr 17, 2012)

free2australian said:


> Would it be possible for you to give me the Dimensions needed for a 10 X 10 Print?
> 
> 
> Sue


I just gave you the minimum in my previous post.  The optimum would be 3000 px X 3000px.  You camera can produce no larger than 2832px X 2832px after trimming 1424px off of the long side using the crop tool. 

FWIW, Inches, cm, feet and kilometers are *dimensions.* Pixels are dimensionless units until applied to media like a computer monitor or printed on a piece of paper. 

Before this gets hopelessly confusing, could I get you to start over?

You have an image that you want to print.  Coming from your camera that image is 4256 px X 2832px.
You want to print that image using Nations Photo Lab.
What size (in inches) do you want the print to be?
Without you cropping the image, you can print at 300ppi an image that is 14.18" X 9.44"
Without cropping you can at 180 ppi print an image that is 23.64" X 15.73"
The print lab offers standard sizes.  Here is a partial list:
Without cropping your image, you can only choose 8"X12", 16"X20" or any size that is a multiple of 2X3
You do not have enough pixels in your original image to print a 16"X20" print since the largest size you can print at 180ppi is 15.73" on its short edge

Based upon the scenario that I just laid out, if you can tell me what you want to print from the list of standard sizes, I can tell you how you need to crop and how you need to export to get an acceptable print from the lab.


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## erro (Apr 17, 2012)

Why do I feel the need to quote my own answer in post #9 in this very same thread:

_"I have seen only too often people giving advice on how to get the  optimal print, with the result that the person who asked only gets more  confused."_


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## clee01l (Apr 17, 2012)

Sue, Does the lab that you have chosen also have printing facilities in Australia?  The Link you referenced is for a Lab located in the US state of Maryland.  Shipping prints to Australia might be prohibitively expensive.


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## Grrman (May 17, 2012)

I'm also trying to figure out the export size for prints at a lab or Costco.  I also have a D700, and following what everyone has said in this thread, does this mean I can never export a size that will fit exactly an 8x10 without some distortion of the original image? Seems that when I export the image to fit pixel dimensions of 2240x2800 at 280ppi, the image gets cropped anyway.  Not sure if the program is up-rezzing, even with the do not enlarge button checked or unchecked.


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## erro (May 17, 2012)

A D700 gives photos of 3:2 proportions. 3/2=1,5. Long side 1,5 times the short side (50% longer)

8x10 is 10:8 proportions. 10/8=1,25. Long side 1,25 times the short side (25% longer)

2240x2800 pixels is also 1,25 (2800/2240), but you need to crop the photo first to 10/8, then export with 2240x2800 pixels.

Cropping and resizing are two different things.


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