# PSE12 upgrade to PSE 15



## Ian.B (Feb 4, 2017)

easier to get answers here than from adobe so -- is moving from pse 12 (with #s) to 15 considered an upgrade as far $$ go ? 

Or better still : is it possible move my pse12 to the new computer via a legal download ? 

As I mostly use PS for cloning, collages and transform I'm starting to think Coral PS Pro might be better as PSE doesn't have transform (I used to   an old CS2 for transform )

The joys of a new computer  > any tips / suggestions apart from getting CC would be very much appreciated


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## Tony Jay (Feb 5, 2017)

Ouch! What a question!

I have never used Elements (always been a PS man) so I will be fascinated to see what a more informed opinion makes of your question.
I did have a quick read of current Elements capability as well as reviews and critiques of Elements.
Frankly put it is a bit of mixed grill as far as I can tell.
It may be that the only person who can tell whether the price/value calculation works is you, Ian!

Tony Jay


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## Ian.B (Feb 5, 2017)

it's a bit like this Tony; if you haven't used PS (or LR) then PSE is great but a PS user will surely miss some of the bigger toys they are used to . It does most things PS does but in a cut down way -- like transform does not have wrap for one 
I going to download a trail of Coral PS Pro and see how it goes . I'm also fiddling with ON1 raw which is another learning curve . ATM I feel it could be OK an editing newbie but it's certainly not LR or PS or Nic but there some interesting bits of each and  like all new software it can be rather frustrating . 
I wouldn't like to be starting out in photography today ; it might be easier to get reasonable photos from  a new camera but basic 1/4  serious digital photography really is a massive learning curve not to mention so very confusing with sooo much confusing and conflicting info being available


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## Tony Jay (Feb 5, 2017)

What you say is true in some respects Ian, but it is also true to say that our younger brethren - the kids of today - take to techno gizmo's and software apps like a duck to water. There would definitely be exceptions to this, admittedly sweeping generalisation, but, as an overall observation it is true.
They tend to just play with stuff like it was a video game - if you get it wrong, you just have another go!
Kids will experiment in ways that you and I just don't think about and consequently discover stuff that just cannot be taught formally.
I think sometimes, that we (Royal) just need to see the world as a kid when we want to learn something new.
For me, perhaps the biggest obstacle to this approach is time, but, that might also be a perception problem on my part rather than reality.

I do think your query is a good one - just the answer is a bit tough from what little I have gleaned about PSE.
I definitely admire your adventurous spirit in investigating the alternatives that you mentioned.
(Perhaps the kid in you is still alive and well!)
Apart from the viewpoints about PSE that your thread will elicit I am also interested in hearing your views about these alternative applications.

Tony Jay


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## Ian.B (Feb 5, 2017)

My drama is having new pics to play with; not sure I have taken a photo outside of the backyard_ this year_ but then it's amazing what is close by to point a camera at and as I say to anyone who wants to listen, any subject can be used to practise photography/editing. Not everyone have grand landscapes close by ( the better pics are on Facebook / flickr  and free to look at/follow without any marketing ****

Over the years I have noticed many who want to get into photography find the usual dslr gear beyond the budget so they give up . That started me on a journey of using the smaller cameras for my personal 'serious' photography to show others they don't have to have the 'standard" dslr to practise and learn photography skills. Some of those who laughed and even ridiculed my smaller cameras now use the smaller cameras or simply got sick of lugging the big gear around so stopped . Why would a _tourist_ want to lug a 5Dii and lenses around  while overseas? For years my travel cameras were  canon g10-12 p+s. 
The same goes for editing software; many cannot justify PS or LR $$ and/or they don't have the time to learn or the ability to learn what is  pretty complicated software so I like to have options for anyone who asks or listens  
There is no doubt Adobe is the king pin and sadly many feel that its the only option so they sign up for something they will never be able to understand  . Although tablets are likely the worst thing for editing photos; at least they give people more chances to fiddle with editing. 
I have actually stopped saying LR is the way to got for beginners as many get bogged down with the catalogue stuff before they get a chance to edit . Most questions / dramas on this forum are catalogue related . The other programs mentioned work from the computers filing system and still have some organising tools although no where  as good as the heavy lifting LR. I have heard of some who use LR for editing only; windows is their organiser 

We ; those trying help others need to remember not everyone wants or needs the power of the big heavy lifters


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## Tony Jay (Feb 5, 2017)

Lots of wisdom there Ian!

I particularly like your views about learning in-camera technique.
One does not need the world's biggest camera, a whole suite of lenses, and an exotic location that is for sure.
Having a camera where one can fully control exposure is a must though.
A single reasonable lens is more than enough to teach all important techniques.
Obviously, the first time one shoots with a super-telephoto lens one learns the importance of keeping lens and camera still all over again.
The same goes for shooting with a megapixel monster - nothing like a bit of camera movement to make an image go soft. Marketing spiel often leads people to seek out cameras with the highest resolution in the belief that the best images will result - unfortunately, much better technique is required to get good images than is the case with a 6 MP or 10 MP camera.

I am bit in-between with my camera inventory - I still shoot with big Canon DSLR's for my birds and wildlife but for everything else I shoot with much smaller Sony mirrorless stuff but they just happen to have 42 MP sensors.
However, often, when I am in practise mode I will pick up a single camera with a single lens only and shoot with that for a whole day. I try all sorts of different approaches and perspectives with that one lens. I am always surprised by how well some shots work out.

Cost in photography, even with a "small" DSLR or mirrorless camera is an issue, and the same goes for the software. Unfortunately, if one is keen on learning what there is to know about digital photography it does mean shooting in raw in order to learn the ins and outs of raw-image editing.
I do have a bit of sympathy for software developers - not too many people will buy a bare-bones bit of software when the opposition is offering a more fully featured application.
I think what would be helpful, although probably very difficult to achieve, is applications that really allow a step-wise development of skills. Unfortunately, it seems inevitable, that one needs to have a certain level of all-round capability with an application in order to really progress - in other words the initial learning curve is very steep - even if it subsequently levels off a bit.
The issues many folk run into with Lightroom and the concepts of catalogs is not something that I see an easy solution for.

Tony Jay


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## Ian.B (Feb 15, 2017)

Tony Jay said:


> I definitely admire your adventurous spirit in investigating the alternatives that you mentioned.
> (Perhaps the kid in you is still alive and well!)


 Just a glutton for punishment more like it



Tony Jay said:


> Apart from the viewpoints about PSE that your thread will elicit I am also interested in hearing your views about these alternative applications.
> Tony Jay



Still very early days but this what I have done so far . Forgotten about PSE15 for now and downloaded  a 30 day trial of Coral paint shop pro and the freebie GIMP. Neither is  PS in disguise ; however they both have appeal . The biggest drama is knowing what PS can do and what what CPSP and gimp don't do. The other big drama is the different lay out and different words to do the same thing and the different ways the same things are done . if I wasn't used to PS; admittedly older versions, then none of those dramas would be as big or worth worrying about .

Those who went from PS to LR will no doubt remember  the dramas of the 'different ways' including no save button haha

If we don't  think too much about the cannot dos then both are certainly OK for weekend happy snappers who doesn't want or need to spend big bucks . It's all about learning what is there and then making the best of it. Both have layers but not much in the way of layer styles  for stroke / shadows / and all those goodies ---- copied and pastes what is there into the other layers  doesn't seem to happen either  .

whatever program the newbies go with   its the time it takes to learn the tricks they need without getting bogged down on the stuff they don't need that is the real drama .

The bottom line is not many if any pros would leave PS for them

As for the new ON1 RAW 2017: well it certainly is not lightroom and its certainly is no PS; _BUT,_ I do like it even though I have had a number of crashing dramas ---- I'm pretty sure I will pay up in about 2 weeks . Not sure the eraser brush lives up the hype but there is a good clone tool but ATM without the blending options as PS. The 4 layer masking tools work very well although have not mastered them fully as yet . In the library / browser does have albums / collections / normal colours tags and flags / keywords, however it is not the power house LR is . No catalogue seems a god send but it's hard going without LR . Not sure it's ready for the one and only program for pros; but I can see it as a one and only for weekenders. It's mix of PS / LR / Nic and it's impossible to have ALL the toys You can send a file from LR / PS to ON1 and get it back with layers attached . There are some great built in presets --- even auto works very well so the newbies will like it.

As I said; still very early days for me ,  and like LR there are so many hidden gems yet to find. I have had LR since V2 and I'm still finding little useful toys  . ATM I cannot see myself going with the adobe subscription that was $100 and is now more like $150 . Where will it end ??

Couple of things I have played with --- the background is a quick pic of a burnt log in the garden + a (mostly) a one click edit in ON1 to add the heat 

the 'campfire' in the hot coals (??) 









Bit of every thing used (4 programs) to do this where as I would have used LR and PS only 



 

Does anyone want more updates? Questions ? ( if allowed on a LR forum


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## Jim Wilde (Feb 15, 2017)

Ian.B said:


> As for the new ON1 RAW 2017: well it certainly is not lightroom and its certainly is no PS; _BUT,_ I do like it even though I have had a number of crashing dramas ---- I'm pretty sure I will pay up in about 2 weeks . Not sure the eraser brush lives up the hype but there is a good clone tool but ATM without the blending options as PS. The 4 layer masking tools work very well although have not mastered them fully as yet . In the library / browser does have albums / collections / normal colours tags and flags / keywords, however it is not the power house LR is . *No catalogue seems a god send* but it's hard going without LR .



I find this no catalog "benefit" to be somewhat disingenuous. Yes, you can create albums and smart albums, and you can add keywords, labels, ratings, etc., but have you wondered where that information is stored, if not in a catalog? I have, so I did a bit of digging....turns out that all of that info is actually stored in various "caches" which are created in the users AppData>Roaming (Windows) or Library>Application Support (Mac). *Some* of that information (but not the album stuff - sound familiar? - and the indexed folders info) is stored in the file's XMP area. But here's the thing, for some reason which is known only to the developers, metadata added to raw files is automatically and immediately written into XMP sidecar files, but metadata added to all other file types is stored in one of those caches and ONLY written to the files's XMP space on user request. I can't find a way to automate that.

So an ON1 user needs to be thinking about backing up those caches (or they risk losing all their album data), and needs to remember to save metadata for any non-raw files (which is also going to upset some users here because writing XMP changes the system file creation and modification timestamps to the current date/time).

Admittedly I haven't spent a lot of time playing with ON1, but I already dislike the Browse module very much.


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## clee01l (Feb 15, 2017)

Jim Wilde said:


> but I already dislike the Browse module very much.


Me too.  That is why I only use PhotoRaw as a LR Plugin.


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## Ian.B (Feb 15, 2017)

great feed back about the inner workings I have little knowledge about


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