# Computer Advice



## ChrisLF (Aug 13, 2022)

As said on another thread I'm going to have to look at replacing my existing PC tower to run LR Classic satisfactorily.

I've searched out the minimum requirements from Adobe but would appreciate it if recommendations could be given for off the shelf PCs that will provide the required performance and at a reasonable price. Not looking for blistering performance, just something to do the job. I'm in the UK.

Currently running Windows 10, I assume Classic runs OK  on Windows 11?

Thanks, Chris


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## PhilBurton (Aug 13, 2022)

Be sure to get at least 16GB of RAM, and an SSD of 1 TB or more.  

How many photos in your catalog?  How much total disk space?  Do you use an external drive to store your actual photos?  

If your budget can stretch a bit, consider getting a separate GPU card.  If that's not possible now, you can probably add one in the future unless you get a "compact" ITX system, which will have limited availability.

With a new system, unless you purchase a bespoke system, it will have Windows 11 installed.

Since I am based in the USA, I can't make any suggestions regarding UK shops.


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## Califdan (Aug 13, 2022)

get as much RAM as you can afford - especially if you have a catalog that is on the larger side.

You also may want to get an externald drive to hold the images.  Image files tend to be the culprit that fills internal drives most and once images have been imported into LrC and previews built, Lightroom Classic's access of the actual image files is quite modest so having the images on a slower drive is typically not a problem.  Of course if that external drive is an SSD, then you'd barely notice the difference.


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## Ken @ Canadian Rockies (Aug 14, 2022)

ChrisLF said:


> As said on another thread I'm going to have to look at replacing my existing PC tower to run LR Classic satisfactorily.
> 
> I've searched out the minimum requirements from Adobe but would appreciate it if recommendations could be given for off the shelf PCs that will provide the required performance and at a reasonable price. Not looking for blistering performance, just something to do the job. I'm in the UK.
> 
> ...


 Well Chris, that is a valid question.   I am running a ThreadRipper 2950X, with 128 GB RAM.  I can tell you from my experience, cores don't matter so much with Photography APPs by Adobe - to much yet!  I have 128 GB RAM, because I edit videos,, and it seems to have helped.  BUT - I have not removed 64 to see.

I suggest basic  cores - 8, with highest Frequency you can find.  I hear Intel is coming out with a Hummer this fall. 5600Mhz in turbo mode. Wild idea.  _(point being, less cores, faster Speed)  _But please study the *PCIe v 4.0. (most newer MBs will have this) *This is one easy way to let your LR database fly.  With at least 1TB or more M.2 PCIe hard drive, using full bandwidth of the PCIe 4.   For affordability, pair this stuff down at your comfort price.  RAM - well, I would never have less than 32 - what I tell my family and friends. Again, fast as your MB can take. Depends on your CPU choice and brand.  Have fun planning,,, read, and then find the hardware sites to see what they think about your choice of "stuff".   I usually take 6 - 12 months planning my new BOX. 

I dream of the day, Adobe updates their software to use more cores.  But this is a technical nightmare for programmers - in respect of editing photos with multicores.   Oh yeah, with all the third party software addons, the Video card will make the difference - and with LR.  They are mostly using the GPU to do the work, so speeds up the work tremendously.   Don't cheap out on your Video card, but you can upgrade this later easily of course.


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## davidedric (Aug 14, 2022)

Hi Chris,
Since you are in the UK I recommend looking at Chillblast.  I got my last two desktops from them, and been very pleased - they use good quality components and assemble them well.  Warning - they are not cheap!
They make a couple of desktops aimed at photo editing.  Their top of the range one is really aimed at professional users, but this is similar to the one I bought:
https://www.chillblast.com/chillblast-create-zen-lite-editing-pc-1.html
It can of course be customised.
Regards, Dave


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## Gnits (Aug 14, 2022)

I recommend that you estimate your image storage requirements  which will give you sufficient storage for,say, the next 3 years.

This number will influence significantly how you might configure your disk purchases / setup.

If this number is greater than 1 or 2 TB then you will likely be considering spinning disks.  In such a scenario, install an ssd (M2 preferred) for your system drive and an internal spinning disk large enough to cover the next,say, 3 years.  You will then need to purchase at least one external drive for system and image backups (ie min size is ssd drive plus spinning drive).

I use a variation of this. In simple terms I have an internal M2 drive for my system and apps, a very fast M2 drive for this years images and then I use a spinning disk Thunderbolt enclosure for my legacy images (going back 20 years at least).

If I was reengineering my own setup today, I would replace my external Thunderbolt enclosure with a single large spinning disk and back up my images to the Thunderbolt enclosure. I would then have M2 SSD for my system and apps, fast M2 for Catalog and current years images, internal spinning disk for all previous years images and use my Thunderbolt enclosure for image and system backups.

I am comfortable with such a setup as I know my immediate and  near future storage needs and can devise a storage config to suit.


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## Paul_DS256 (Aug 14, 2022)

Some things I keep in mind:

What other programs may you be running at the same time? Will you be launching PS from LrC for example. That increases your resource requirements especially memory. 
Look for discrete components or at least being able to add new ones. I can’t upgrade to the latest version of PS because I only have 1.5gb of video RAM. PS wants 2. A work in progress. Some systems are not upgradeable. 
There’s also a balance based on your needs. Are you a heavy user of LrC or more casual? I’m currently running on a 10 year old system, 16gb of memory and a 5400rpm disk. Do I have delays sometime? Yes, if I’m doing HDR or PANO work. I really notice it when I use some Topaz plug-ins.  This is the hard part. Size for a Lamborghini or Chev.


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## ChrisLF (Aug 14, 2022)

Thank you all for your replies. Photography is purely hobby and I don't process large numbers of photographs so lightning speed isn't a requirement, just want to avoid slow running and potential crashes.

I tend to download new images from the day's shooting (RAW + JPEG) onto the PC' s hard-drive and process a selection in LR.  The camera files are then moved to two separate HD's (2TB and 5TB) for backup and to keep free space on the PC HD. Part of the problem with this PC is that as well as being a few years old is that it is just home office spec. unlike some games machines we've had previously.

Dave - I've not heard of Chillblast (but unlike years ago do not keep abreast of all things computing anymore) but the one you've linked to would fit the bill nicely and is around the price I was expecting to pay. Our first proper PC from Evesham, about 30 years ago, was around £1800!

Do you think there is any need to customise, or leave as specified?

Chris


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## davidedric (Aug 14, 2022)

ChrisLF said:


> Thank you all for your replies. Photography is purely hobby and I don't process large numbers of photographs so lightning speed isn't a requirement, just want to avoid slow running and potential crashes.
> 
> I tend to download new images from the day's shooting (RAW + JPEG) onto the PC' s hard-drive and process a selection in LR.  The camera files are then moved to two separate HD's (2TB and 5TB) for backup and to keep free space on the PC HD. Part of the problem with this PC is that as well as being a few years old is that it is just home office spec. unlike some games machines we've had previously.
> 
> ...


Hi Chris,
The only thing I notice is that it only comes with 500Gb SSD - no hard drive.  So if your existing drives are external you could use those, or add an internal hdd


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## davidedric (Aug 14, 2022)

P.S.  Support has been easy to reach, by email or phone.  You can get to talk to actual engineers!


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## ChrisLF (Aug 14, 2022)

Thanks Dave, I had noticed that there was no HD so will add one, as it will be used for our day to day computer as well, along with things like DVD drive and card readers etc. Good news about their support and the guarantee is good as well, better than most offerings. Looks like the way to go.


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## Gnits (Aug 14, 2022)

A few things to consider.

1. Double check that you can connect your existing screen to the graphics card on the new PC.  You may need a different cable or find some level of incompatibility.
2. I read the spec on the linked machine above.  Surprised the card reader was only 3.0 .... might be worth querying if 3.1 or 3.2 available. Not a big deal, just to be aware.
3. "Expansion Card: 4 + 1 USB 3.0 Port PCIe Hub Controller" . 3.0 is now quite a slow interface, announced in Nov 2008. That is very ol;d in computing terms.
4. Decide how important it is for you re USB port formats.  (ie do you want/need USB C).

Also, I agree... I think you are better starting with an internal HD.  Less cables, less problems with power, less to go wrong.


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## ChrisLF (Aug 14, 2022)

One thing I like about Chillblast is that they have guides which take you through all aspects of what makes up a good machine for photography, gaming etc. and explain what works best for different requirements and don't push you towards the most expensive components if not required, very refreshing.

I'd briefly looked at other well known makes (assemblers!) and you'd really need to know exactly what you want beforehand so that you get what you need but don't go over the top and spend too much. Obviously I'm going to have to do some work in finalising the spec. but this will be relatively easy and painless now with their guides and suggested machines as per your link etc. Thanks again Dave, good suggestion.

Thanks Gnits for your comments and suggestions, I will take those into consideration when drawing up the final spec.

Chris


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## prbimages (Aug 15, 2022)

Also generally agree with what's been written above. If budget permits, I would suggest increasing the memory to 32GB, and the SSD capacity to 1TB (or more), and adding a large internal hard drive.


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## PhilBurton (Aug 15, 2022)

prbimages said:


> Also generally agree with what's been written above. If budget permits, I would suggest increasing the memory to 32GB, and the SSD capacity to 1TB (or more), and adding a large internal hard drive.


Completely agree.  Unless you have a specific need for an external hard drive, you are better served with an internal drive.  Check with your dealer about these points if you have either an external hard drive or an internal hard drive in your old system that holds all your images.


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## ChrisLF (Aug 15, 2022)

Thanks for the additional suggestions. I do use two external drives to backup my photos and other stuff and to free up space on the internal drive which I will continue to do so won't need a massive internal drive. It will just be used for the initial import and processing of images and those actually imported into LR. I don't have a huge number. I'll look to see how many I currently have in LR and make a judgement on future needs.

Will start drawing up the spec. today. I just know the budget is going to creep up!

Chris


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## David689 (Aug 16, 2022)

I bought my latest PC from https://www.pcspecialist.co.uk . They have a user forum where you can ask for recommendatins based on your intended use, your budget and your monitor. Volunteers on the forum (who do not work for the company - they are just very knowledgeable amateur enthusiasts who know what they are talking about) will then put together a recomended custom build that you can then edit and then order when you are happy with it. Have a look at the sales advice subforum to see what I mean. They will help you get the best for your budget and will help make sure you choose components that go together well, eg making sure you specify appropriate cooling. 
They are UK based. I do not have any vested interest in them.


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## David689 (Aug 16, 2022)

Having said all that, at the moment the advice is that there is  lot of new hardware about to be released so, often, the advice at the moment is to wait a little.


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## ChrisLF (Aug 16, 2022)

Thanks David, I will take a look as well.

Yeah, number of times I've bought something and then it's been updated/new version is brought out!

Having said that you can put things off for too long sometimes!

Chris


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## GregJ (Aug 16, 2022)

ChrisLF said:


> As said on another thread I'm going to have to look at replacing my existing PC tower to run LR Classic satisfactorily.
> 
> I've searched out the minimum requirements from Adobe but would appreciate it if recommendations could be given for off the shelf PCs that will provide the required performance and at a reasonable price. Not looking for blistering performance, just something to do the job. I'm in the UK.
> 
> ...


Chris,
I'm in the US and am a PC builder (as a hobby) and I stay abreast of all the latest PC components.  I can't recommend a shop in the UK, but I can tell you that any new mid-range PC is going to rock LR.   Just get at least 16 and preferably 32 on the ram.  Make sure you are buying a PC with the latest gen processor (at whatever level).  For intel that is 12th gen Alder Lake, but very soon (within a few weeks) will be the 13th gen Raptor Lake CPUs.  
I need to know what you want to spend to better frame it.  But you could wait a couple of months for Raptor Lake and get a pre-built PC with a Raptor Lake chip.

I also think you should not rely on integrated graphics and get a PC with a mid-range GPU, unless you game, then spend a bit more.  Those GPUs are getting really cheap now as prices plummet from the recent two years of astronomically high GPU prices.  Plus, both Nvidia and AMD are about to come out with a new generation of cards that are going to be a big jump in tech and will drop the prices of this current generation even more.  

Storage?  You want to be booting off of a 1TB NVMe PCIe Gen 4 M.2 SSD.  Anything older than that (like Gen 3) and you are getting an older machine, so be warry of that.  You will boot off of that SSD and your Adobe programs and Cat will reside on that SSD.  

Your images?  You want to be storing them on a separate internal SSD.  The question is how big is that?  Can you do it on a 2TB SSD?  If so, that is a no-brainer.  If you need 4, then my recommendation will change.  How big is your folder or folder where all of your images are stored?  Tell me how big that is now, and if you shoot a lot to account for growth.  I will tell you what SSD to get.  

External storage for backup?  That is cheap and plentiful.  Back up to external spinning small portable drives.  Those are about 110 bucks for 5 TB, and less for 2 or 4 TB.   But it all depends on the size of your current image data.  If it is small, say around a TB or so, I'm gonna have you backing up to 1 or 2 TB SSD drives.  The point is that now is the time to divorce yourself from spinning hard drives if you are a hobbyist and your file storage requirements are relatively small.  1 TB is a lot of data.  But 1 TB is a very small storage requirement these days and you can do it all on SSDs.  

Now for the monitor.  Get a 4K IPS 32-inch pro monitor if you can.  That will dramatically increase your level of enjoyment for your digital photography.  That is still expensive but getting much cheaper.


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## Gnits (Aug 16, 2022)

I have a 4k, 32 inch , close to 100% AdobeRGB.  There are lots of times when I need to drag windows from the side of the screen  to the centre to make viewing more comfortable.  A 32 inch Adobe RGB 4k screen is multiple times more expensive than say a 2k 24 or 27 inch screen. It is a pity to spend a lot of extra money and be uncomfortable with the resultant ergonomics.  
Decide if you need AdobeRGB, or P3 or sRGB standard colourspace. This might have a big impact on price.

If buying a new machine, I would aim towards a mid tier graphics card. Partially for performance now, but mainly to future proof your current spend.

There is no perfect answer…. as individual styles, font sizes, eyesight and workflows vary so much. Not sure if it is possible to view screens in a store before making a decision on screen sizes.

Screens do decay over time. I changed mine because my prev 27 inch had just died.  

I spent a fortune on a 1st gen GPU, simply because of the crazy shortage. Now is a good time to get a mid tier GPU.


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## GregJ (Aug 16, 2022)

Gnits said:


> I have a 4k, 32 inch , close to 100% AdobeRGB.  There are lots of times when I need to drag windows from the side of the screen  to the centre to make viewing more comfortable.  A 32 inch Adobe RGB 4k screen is multiple times more expensive than say a 2k 24 or 27 inch screen. It is a pity to spend a lot of extra money and be uncomfortable with the resultant ergonomics.
> Decide if you need AdobeRGB, or P3 or sRGB standard colourspace. This might have a big impact on price.
> 
> If buying a new machine, I would aim towards a mid tier graphics card. Partially for performance now, but mainly to future proof your current spend.
> ...


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## GregJ (Aug 16, 2022)

Gnits, I agree.  Yes, monitors are personal, and they are getting cheaper and better (finally).  But I'll say this.  If you have not seen your high-res images on a 32-inch 4k IPS pro monitor, you haven't seen your images.  And if you could see them on a big 4K or above mini-LED monitor you would be amazed (but those are super expensive).  
Anyway, yes....  Now is the time to reach in your rig, rip out whatever GPU you have and replace it with a GPU that is so much cheaper and better now.

Take my case.  Three months ago GPU prices started dropping to close to MSRP for the first time in 30 months.  I bought an Invidia 3080 Ti that had been goinng for close to 2 grand for 900 bucks.  Was all excited.  Now they are dropping to 700 - below their MSRP.  Why?  There is a glut after the shortages and plus Nvidea is about to release their 4080 cards.  So you can buy a mid-level card that is great for most photographers for a couple of hundred bucks.  
SSDs are dropping in price right now two for the first time in 4 years.


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## Victoria Bampton (Aug 17, 2022)

You might also want to take a look at the recommendations from https://www.pugetsystems.com/recomm...ightroom-Classic-141/Hardware-Recommendations - they do lots of Lightroom-specific benchmarking, so although you wouldn't want to order from them (they're US based), it'd give you some good tops on the sweet spot spec that balances performance and budget.


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## Gnits (Aug 17, 2022)

Victoria Bampton said:


> so although you wouldn't want to order from them


Just fyi.  I tried to order from Puget (despite their US location) but they would not deliver.


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## ChrisLF (Aug 13, 2022)

As said on another thread I'm going to have to look at replacing my existing PC tower to run LR Classic satisfactorily.

I've searched out the minimum requirements from Adobe but would appreciate it if recommendations could be given for off the shelf PCs that will provide the required performance and at a reasonable price. Not looking for blistering performance, just something to do the job. I'm in the UK.

Currently running Windows 10, I assume Classic runs OK  on Windows 11?

Thanks, Chris


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## GregJ (Aug 17, 2022)

David689 said:


> Having said all that, at the moment the advice is that there is  lot of new hardware about to be released so, often, the advice at the moment is to wait a little.


David, that is so true.  As a PC builder I can tell you that for the past 30 years and more, that has always been true.  There is always something new about to come out no matter when you buy or build.  For example, when I build a cutting-edge expensive rig that has all the lates components, it is no longer cutting edge 10 moths later, and 18 months or two years later it is a current mid-range PC.  

But it is very important now to be aware of what is happening out there in the component world and what you are buying at the low to mid-level.  She needs to get a pre-built good-name PC that has a Motherboard that has TB4 and USB4 connectivity and that has capability to handle PCIe Gen 4 SSDs.  If the system she buys does not have that, she is going to be way behind much faster and to get a mid-range PC that has that capability in the next few months is not going to break the bank.  

But it is not a big deal really.  If she buys a mid-range PC two months from now from a good builder, brand or shop, she is going to get what was cutting edge two or 3 years ago that would have cost 3 or 4 times more back then.  Whatever she gets is going to be very good with LR.  LR is going to fly on any current mid-range desktop.


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## murali (Aug 17, 2022)

Victoria Bampton said:


> You might also want to take a look at the recommendations from https://www.pugetsystems.com/recomm...ightroom-Classic-141/Hardware-Recommendations - they do lots of Lightroom-specific benchmarking, so although you wouldn't want to order from them (they're US based), it'd give you some good tops on the sweet spot spec that balances performance and budget.


I live in Seattle and Puget Sound's recommendations are overkill and the cheapest system is close to $4K. Based on terrific guidance from another thread here, I got a PC custom built locally for $1.5K with the following specs:
Intel latest i5 processor
64GB RAM
1 TB SSD
NVidia 1650 Graphics card
850W Gold power supply
Lots of USB 3.1 ports
LR and PS run blazingly fast. Takes less than 10 seconds to Align 4 layered images and another 5 seconds to auto-blend.
RAM prices have come down. Getting 64GB makes a lot of sense.  You will get more bang for the buck (pound) compared to more powerful CPU.  YMMV.

Thanks to the folks here who gave me terrific guidance.


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## GregJ (Aug 17, 2022)

murali said:


> I live in Seattle and Puget Sound's recommendations are overkill and the cheapest system is close to $4K. Based on terrific guidance from another thread here, I got a PC custom built locally for $1.5K with the following specs:
> Intel latest i5 processor
> 64GB RAM
> 1 TB SSD
> ...


Great job!  That's a great rig for 1500 bucks.  64 of ram is really a great idea for a desktop and pays good dividends.  I always recommend it now even for below middle rigs.  A lot of people don't know what a nice mid level desktop can do these days.


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## ChrisLF (Aug 17, 2022)

Yes, I'm really appreciating the help and guidance as well.

I shall probably go for 32GB of RAM but might increase it.

I was thinking about going down the route of a 500GB SSD as the C Drive (currently 150GB which is way too small) and then another HDD (a slower but bigger one, maybe 5TB) for the D Drive (currently 762GB but less than half used) for holding my catalogue and files from other applications but as I use two Seagate external drives to backup everything up and hold my original camera files then I guess it makes more sense to have one bigger 1TB SSD to take the OS and other software and data? Is yours partitioned into C and D?

If I do go down that route maybe I'll go for a bigger SSD though? My current C and D capacity adds up to just under 1TB, though it's not all used, but would be good to have some spare capacity.

Chris


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## GregJ (Aug 17, 2022)

ChrisLF said:


> Yes, I'm really appreciating the help and guidance as well.
> 
> I shall probably go for 32GB of RAM but might increase it.
> 
> ...


Chris, you have a lot of wiggle room and whatever you get in the way of a new desktop is going to work well if it is a new PC at the mid-level.  I can't see your options here of course, and I don't know what you are spending.  I also am aware that we in the US get better deals on electronics and computers, so there is that.

But I think you can get a really nice fairly inexpensive PC that boots off of a 1 TB M.2 SSD (which you are calling the C Drive, which it normally is on Windows).  On that Boot drive is your OS (Windows), all your programs (LR) and your lightroom folder with the catalog and previews.

Then you could mount a 2 TB SSD internally (or externally if you want) for all your data needs (images).  You can name that drive whatever letter you want.  Call it D if internal.  Then you can back it up to external HDD or SSD.  You will find that 2 TB SSDs mounted externally through a USB-C port of at least 10 Gbps (or faster) will be the way to go if not now then very soon.  But you still haven't said how big the folder is with all of your images.  That we need to know.  Maybe I missed it.


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## ChrisLF (Aug 17, 2022)

Hi Greg, thanks for your further thoughts.

I have two folders residing on the D Drive (Windows 10, Lightroom and other Adobe stuff and other programs are on the C Drive partition). One called Lightroom amounting to 217GB and containing catalogues and backups and the other called For Lightroom, amounting to 234GB, which contains all my folders containing images, mainly RAW, for importing into Lightroom. After extensive housekeeping LR itself currently has 2961 images in it. 

Not a great number I know (photography has to compete with other more expensive hobbies and budgets!) which is why I've said I don't need top end and mid-range will be more than adequate.

For the boot drive I agree a 1TB SSD is the way to go. I currently have over 2TB on each of my external drives so an additional internal SSD of 2TB won't be enough and so I'm leaning towards a 6TB HDD but will continue to use my external drives for backup.

Yes, I've noticed that many things are more expensive over here including computers and cameras etc!  :(

Chris


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## GregJ (Aug 18, 2022)

OK,
Get that mid-range PC like we described with the internal M.2 1 TB boot drive and put all of your files on a spinning 4 TB external portable hard drive for now.  Those are very common and are always on sale here for around 80 bucks or less in Costco.  If those old spinning external drives of yours are 4 years old, be wary of them.  You need to buy three of those 4 TB drives.  One is your primary data drive and the other two are exact copy backups of that drive and all of your data and images.  One of the backups you keep in the house and one off-site.  

But do this ... keep your eye on the external 4 TB SATA SSD market because that is what you need to go to for your data. They are getting way less expensive every month that goes by.  SATA is old tech, but twice as cheap as NVMe external drives, although 4 times slower.  But still, 4 TB external SSD SATA drives are 4 times faster and light-years better than any spinning hard drive.  Smaller, more durable, more reliable and feels ten times faster (because of latency issues). 

Without giving an SSD lecture, let me give you another market example as comparison - the external 4TB NVMe SSD, like the new SanDisk 4TB Extreme PRO Portable SSD, is far more expensive than the external SATA 4TB SSD.  It is about 500 bucks now.  So Jumping from SATA to NVMe doubles the price and quadruples the speed.  Beyond that are the internal SSDs that are NVMe, M.2,  PCIe 4 and soon to be 5, and those jump yet again in speed to 20 times faster than a SATA SSD and 80 times faster than a hard drive.  
But don't worry about that.  Get those 4  TB external hard drives for now, and keep an eye on 4 TB SATA external drives, and when the price drops to around 210 bucks for one of those, get one as your primary data drive and connect it to the USB-C 3.2 Gen 2x1 (10 Gbps) drive on your new PC.  That is your goal.
Well, that should be everyone's goal that has less than 3 TB of data files and is running it off of spinning HDDs.


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## PhilBurton (Aug 19, 2022)

GregJ said:


> OK,
> Get that mid-range PC like we described with the internal M.2 1 TB boot drive and put all of your files on a spinning 4 TB external portable hard drive for now.  Those are very common and are always on sale here for around 80 bucks or less in Costco.  If those old spinning external drives of yours are 4 years old, be wary of them.  You need to buy three of those 4 TB drives.  One is your primary data drive and the other two are exact copy backups of that drive and all of your data and images.  One of the backups you keep in the house and one off-site.
> 
> But do this ... keep your eye on the external 4 TB SATA SSD market because that is what you need to go to for your data. They are getting way less expensive every month that goes by.  SATA is old tech, but twice as cheap as NVMe external drives, although 4 times slower.  But still, 4 TB external SSD SATA drives are 4 times faster and light-years better than any spinning hard drive.  Smaller, more durable, more reliable and feels ten times faster (because of latency issues).
> ...


It is important to understand both the benefits and the negatives about SSDs.  On the positive side, putting higher prices aside,  they have better performance and require less power than "spinning rust."  For a laptop running a batttery the latter is an important consideration.  And external SSDs are far more rugged than external HDDs, another key benefit.  The key negative for an SSD is its failure mode.  With no moving parts, there are no odd mechanical noises that presage failure.  One day, poof, the drive will simply not work.

Therefore it is important that your backup drive be a normal HDD.  If you use the backup drive infrequently, then service life will not be an issue.
Of course, the price difference between a large SSD and a large HDD might be better spent on other parts of a system, such as more memory or a faster CPU or an add-in GPU card.


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## ChrisLF (Aug 20, 2022)

Thanks Phil
Both my external backups are spinners and whilst a few years old haven't had frequent use.  I shall probably replace the older and smaller one soon anyway.

I shall take Greg's advice and make sure the ports in the new PC are suitable for SSD drives if I go down that route in the future. It will be specced with plenty of RAM and a separate graphics card with more than the minimum amount of RAM as well.

Chris


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## GregJ (Aug 20, 2022)

PhilBurton said:


> It is important to understand both the benefits and the negatives about SSDs.  On the positive side, putting higher prices aside,  they have better performance and require less power than "spinning rust."  For a laptop running a batttery the latter is an important consideration.  And external SSDs are far more rugged than external HDDs, another key benefit.  The key negative for an SSD is its failure mode.  With no moving parts, there are no odd mechanical noises that presage failure.  One day, poof, the drive will simply not work.
> 
> Therefore it is important that your backup drive be a normal HDD.  If you use the backup drive infrequently, then service life will not be an issue.
> Of course, the price difference between a large SSD and a large HDD might be better spent on other parts of a system, such as more memory or a faster CPU or an add-in GPU card.


Phil, I do not agree with this at all.  Besides vastly understating the advantages of SSDs over HDDs, that bit about the SSD not making noise and thus being a disadvantage because you can't hear it right before it goes out?  No.... 
There are zero benefits to HDD vs SSD except for two things right now - cost and capacity.  Speed, quickness, reliability, size, durability and ruggedness? The differences are vast, and the HDD has zero advantages.  None.  There is no comparison.
I can't wait till SSDs get just a bit more inexpensive at the 4 and 8 TB capacity so I can toss all of my many HDDs into the dustbin of history.   
SSDs are far better for backup (they are better for everything) if you can swing the cost (currently).  And if your data requirements are under 2 TB, you don't need an HDD (in my opinion) right now and should be moving to SSD.    
They day is soon coming where HDDs will only be used at above 8TB.


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## PhilBurton (Aug 20, 2022)

ChrisLF said:


> Thanks Phil
> Both my external backups are spinners and whilst a few years old haven't had frequent use.  I shall probably replace the older and smaller one soon anyway.
> 
> I shall take Greg's advice and make sure the ports in the new PC are suitable for SSD drives if I go down that route in the future. It will be specced with plenty of RAM and a separate graphics card with more than the minimum amount of RAM as well.
> ...


Chris,

SSD drives are the same size as 2.5" HDDs.  They have mounting points in the same positions and they use the same SATA III interface.   Thus it is easy to swap out an old HDD and replace it with a new SSD.  The key issue is the "data migration tools" the SSD vendor supplies with the drive.


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## Paul_DS256 (Aug 20, 2022)

GregJ said:


> There are zero benefits to HDD vs SSD except for two things right now - cost and capacity. Speed, quickness, reliability, size, durability and ruggedness? The differences are vast, and the HDD has zero advantages. None. There is no comparison.


I understand the benefits of SSD, even though I only presently use HDD. I've been looking to use SSD in my next configuration. In terms of potential disadvantage, I've seen a number of articles like this against defragging SSD's which cause me pause.  Now, I agree that because of the different technologies, the same benefit of continuous blocks on HDD is not necessarily needed for SSD. However, SDD has an attribute that HDD does not 'program/erase cycles'. Yes, the HDD media will eventually fail but seems higher than SSD.

"_Because of the way SSDs work, not only does data not become fragmented but running a defragmentation utility will actually burn through the program/erase cycles and potentially cause premature 'death' of your SSDs_"


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## PhilBurton (Aug 20, 2022)

GregJ said:


> Phil, I do not agree with this at all.  Besides vastly understating the advantages of SSDs over HDDs, that bit about the SSD not making noise and thus being a disadvantage because you can't hear it right before it goes out?  No....
> There are zero benefits to HDD vs SSD except for two things right now - cost and capacity.  Speed, quickness, reliability, size, durability and ruggedness? The differences are vast, and the HDD has zero advantages.  None.  There is no comparison.
> I can't wait till SSDs get just a bit more inexpensive at the 4 and 8 TB capacity so I can toss all of my many HDDs into the dustbin of history.
> SSDs are far better for backup (they are better for everything) if you can swing the cost (currently).  And if your data requirements are under 2 TB, you don't need an HDD (in my opinion) right now and should be moving to SSD.
> They day is soon coming where HDDs will only be used at above 8TB.


Greg,

I have to respectfully disagree with the message being quoted. 

Cost is usually an issue for most people at some level.  The budget may be "soft" but in reality there is an upper limit to what most people are willing and able to spend on a new system or upgrades to an existing system.  And for someone who has a perfectly functioning 2 TB HDD that they use for bulk storage of photo files, what is the real rationale for arbitrarily replacing it with an SSD?  Except for import, the bulk storage drive has little effect on overall LrC performance.  The same money may be better spent elsewhere.

Second the sudden death failure mode of SSDs is well known.  Perhaps at some point in the (far) future, SSDs will be below in cost than equivalent HDDs for the capacities that most of us use.  And perhaps the sudden death issue will be solved.

That said, I worked in a disk drive company forty years ago at a time when there were fifty ( !! ) identified hard disk startup companies.  Along with massive consolidation, I have observed how hard disk drives have continuously  improved capacity and performance, while shrinking in physical size and cost.  Back then disk drives used either 14" or in some cases 8" platters.   Now platters are either 2.5" or 3.5" while capacity per platter has increased exponentially.  There are no technology factors to slow down or halt the progression of improvements in HDDs.  That is reality.

"Can't wait" is certainly a reasonable aspirational personal goal, but it can't be put forth as guidance for everyone else.  Same for "day is soon coming."   You very well may be right, but for people making purchase decisions now,  they have to make their decisions based on whats on offer now, not in three or four or more years.  Statements like these two do not serve the membership of this forum, which is focused on photography and not on new developments in computer hardware technology.

And perhaps you are making an assumption that chip foundries in Taiwan and S. Korea will not be disturbed by developments in East Asia, an assumption that I don't share.


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## PhilBurton (Aug 20, 2022)

Paul_DS256 said:


> I understand the benefits of SSD, even though I only presently use HDD. I've been looking to use SSD in my next configuration. In terms of potential disadvantage, I've seen a number of articles like this against defragging SSD's which cause me pause.  Now, I agree that because of the different technologies, the same benefit of continuous blocks on HDD is not necessarily needed for SSD. However, SDD has an attribute that HDD does not 'program/erase cycles'. Yes, the HDD media will eventually fail but seems higher than SSD.
> 
> "_Because of the way SSDs work, not only does data not become fragmented but running a defragmentation utility will actually burn through the program/erase cycles and potentially cause premature 'death' of your SSDs_"


Paul,

If you replace the main drive in your system, the one that contains MacOS or Windows, with an SSD, you will be very pleased with the immediate improvement in performance.   If possible, also store your LrC catalog on the SSD.   Just make sure that your purchase includes a migration utility for your operating system.  And do not pay the premium for a PCIE-4 drive, unless you know your system supports PCIE-4.

I believe that Windows 10's built in disk optimization feature will automatically not defrag an SSD.


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## ChrisLF (Aug 20, 2022)

Phil - what's the migration utility used for?
Thanks, Chris


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## GregJ (Aug 20, 2022)

PhilBurton said:


> Greg,
> 
> I have to respectfully disagree with the message being quoted.
> 
> ...


Phil, your statement about failing SSDs being well known is incorrect.  Maybe at some time in the past, but not now.  Any computer part or drive of any type can fail, but SSDs are far more reliable than HDDs and it's not even close.  You don't pick an HDD over an SSD because of reliability.   You do it because of cost or capacity. 

Anyway, the lady is buying a new PC and asking for advice on what best to get at the mid-level.  I'm giving her sound advice and telling her to keep an eye out on the SSDs hitting the street now and in the next few months.  I think you would agree she needs to be booting off of a 1TB M.2 SSD.  That's a no-brainer at even the low-cost PC level.  So we are in agreement there.

For the data?  There is not a photographer on Planet Earth who would pick an HDD over an SSD for working image files if cost or capacity were not an issue.  In other words, you may be the only photographer in the World who would pick an HDD over an SSD because you think the HDD is more reliable and that the SSD might suddenly die. 

And Phil, if I were you, I would not be waiting "3 or 4 years" (as you say) for much faster, lower priced and much larger capacity SSDs because it is happening right now, and I'm telling her to keep her eye on the market.  I think she can run her data off of a 2 TB SSD right now at a reasonable cost.  She should at least be aware of it as an attractive option.  But I do not have a full understanding of her total data requirements, and I said in the original post that she should buy 3 4TB HDDs and keep her eye on the ball on the SSD market and be ready to switch.

By the way, why are you lecturing me about what photographers do and what best serves the forum?  I'm a photographer and I'm giving the lady very sound and current advice.


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## PhilBurton (Aug 20, 2022)

ChrisLF said:


> Phil - what's the migration utility used for?
> Thanks, Chris


Chris,

It's a program to transfer all the programs and data to the new drive, after ensuring that the new drive has sufficient free space.

For _Windows _machines, it marks the new drive as "bootable."  Doing a simple "copy all" from the old drive to the new drive is not sufficient, at least for Windows.  To be clear, I don't know anything about how MacOS works or if Apple itself provides a migration utility.

If the drive kit does not come with an adapter cable, you MIGHT need this sort of cable, particularly for laptops.

https://www.amazon.com/StarTech-com-SATA-USB-Cable-USB3S2SAT3CB/dp/B00HJZJI84?asc_contentid=amzn1.osa.4d128e9a-f03c-4a0b-83a9-860753b9c23a.ATVPDKIKX0DER.en_US&asc_contenttype=article&content-id=amzn1.sym.15d473d8-31ee-48d9-a207-aaa8ce868fca:amzn1.sym.15d473d8-31ee-48d9-a207-aaa8ce868fca

The photos for this product are very helpful.  I like Star Tech products over the many no-name or what-kind-of-name-is-that?  products that clutter Amazon search results.  Another good brand is Fideco.  Avoid Orico.


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## GregJ (Aug 20, 2022)

PhilBurton said:


> Chris,
> 
> SSD drives are the same size as 2.5" HDDs.  They have mounting points in the same positions and they use the same SATA III interface.   Thus it is easy to swap out an old HDD and replace it with a new SSD.  The key issue is the "data migration tools" the SSD vendor supplies with the drive.


Phil, that is true for SATA SSDs but not for NVMe M.2 PCIe (as I'm sure you know, but I'm just pointing out because there is a big difference).  

And Paul, don't worry about defragging SSDs.  Not really needed, especially not for the kind of work you are talking about.


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## ChrisLF (Aug 21, 2022)

Thanks Phil. To be clear is this for if you are replacing the HDD with a SSD in an existing PC or if transferring programs and data to a new one?

Greg - don't know why you assumed I'm a lady, though of course Chris can be either, though more often associated with male. I know two other Chris's. Used to work in an office with a Christine, shortened to Chris and I was referred to as the Chris with the moustache!


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## Gnits (Aug 21, 2022)

Ssd drives were / are a 2.5 inch fairly small form factor (compared to a typical spinning disk) and used a typical Sata connection to the motherboard. So, while these SSD drives are generally a lot faster than spinning disks, they are limited, speed wise, by the max Sata standard.

The NVMe M.2 PCIe drives are also Solid State, but are like a mini card which slots into the Pcie slot of a computer. The Sata standard has not changed for years and years and so the max throughput has been capped for some time. On the other hand, the Pcie standard is continuously improving, with each generation almost doubling the I/O speed of the bus. I think the latest generally available is Pcie 4. Your motherboard defines the Pcie version you have. I believe that Pcie 5 is just around the corner and work is advanced in terms of defining Pcie 6 and 7. The combination of M2 drive tech combined with the fast bus speeds of Pcie 4 gives rise to really fast disk I/O speeds.

Current  motherboards generally now facilitate M2 PCie drives, but older motherboards (laptops or PCs) may not, so if upgrading your option might only be SSD  via a Sata connection to the motherboard.


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## GregJ (Aug 21, 2022)

Gnits said:


> Ssd drives were / are a 2.5 inch fairly small form factor (compared to a typical spinning disk) and used a typical Sata connection to the motherboard. So, while these SSD drives are generally a lot faster than spinning disks, they are limited, speed wise, by the max Sata standard.
> 
> The NVMe M.2 PCIe drives are also Solid State, but are like a mini card which slots into the Pcie slot of a computer. The Sata standard has not changed for years and years and so the max throughput has been capped for some time. On the other hand, the Pcie standard is continuously improving, with each generation almost doubling the I/O speed of the bus. I think the latest generally available is Pcie 4. Your motherboard defines the Pcie version you have. I believe that Pcie 5 is just around the corner and work is advanced in terms of defining Pcie 6 and 7. The combination of M2 drive tech combined with the fast bus speeds of Pcie 4 gives rise to really fast disk I/O speeds.
> 
> Current  motherboards generally now facilitate M2 PCie drives, but older motherboards (laptops or PCs) may not, so if upgrading your option might only be SSD  via a Sata connection to the motherboard.


Gnits,  
Good point.  There is an interesting development on the PCIe front in Intel vs AMD.  Intel has a bit of a platform problem going forward in terms of PCIe connectivity for M.2 SSDs.  Intel was first to make use of PCIe 5 with its 12th gen Alder Lake CPUs and 600 series chipsets.  That was big news, even though there are no PCIe 5.0 M.2 SSDs yet on the market (happening soon).  

The problem is it is limited to 16 lanes, which means there is no native PCIe 5.0 support for M.2 storage slots.  You have to get an add-in card to do it.  That is also true for the new 13th Generation Raptor Lake CPUs and 700 series Motherboards.  The Intel chipset hardware won't change anytime soon.  This is a big deal and gives the advantage to AMD because AMD's new AM5 socket and Ryzan 7000 CPUs will have sufficient PCIe 5 lanes for M.2 storage on the platform.  There are complex reasons why Intel is stuck for a while with this platform and it is said that they will still have to use it even two years from now on the 14th Gen CPU.  

Now, there are some Intel Z690 Motherboards (and soon to be released 700 Motherboards) with native PCIe 5.0 M.2 slots, but to use them, you have to steal lanes from the PEG-16 slot, which will cut the bandwidth of the GPU in half.  That doesn't hinder current generation top-end GPUs, but it will soon when the new powerful (generational leap) AMD and NVidia 40 series cards are released in the Fall.  

Anyway, this is something we Intel PC builders are worried about, and Maximum PC ran a big story on it today in the Sep issue (which was released to day and I just read it).    Why can't Intel change its chipset hardware to better accommodate PCIE 5.0 M.2 SSDs?   They are having problems with their desired 7nm production process for their CPUs.  Die-shrink is difficult.  AMD is already there.  Remember the past several years how Intel had incredible difficulty getting to 10nm?  It looks like their problems in that regard continue.


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## GregJ (Aug 21, 2022)

ChrisLF said:


> Thanks Phil. To be clear is this for if you are replacing the HDD with a SSD in an existing PC or if transferring programs and data to a new one?
> 
> Greg - don't know why you assumed I'm a lady, though of course Chris can be either, though more often associated with male. I know two other Chris's. Used to work in an office with a Christine, shortened to Chris and I was referred to as the Chris with the moustache!


Sorry Chris - I have two male friends in Texas named Chris and my wife's best friend (a female) is named Chris.  This reminds me of the old Johnny Cash song, A Boy Named Sue.  But that was the 50s....
Sorry I assumed you were a nice lady looking for PC advice.  Had I known you were a man, I would not have been so polite!  LOL.  
Besides, in the US now you can be any gender you say you are or want to be, so it doesn't matter.  If you are a biological female, you can say you are a male and if you have a baby, you can then say that men can give birth.  That is an absolute fact of the current situation.  I'm not being political or saying if I agree with that or not.  It is just the way it is now in 2022.  I don't care either way.  I just declare to my wife that I am a man and thus allow the use of "he-him" in our conversations.


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## PhilBurton (Aug 21, 2022)

ChrisLF said:


> Thanks Phil. To be clear is this for if you are replacing the HDD with a SSD in an existing PC or if transferring programs and data to a new one?
> 
> Greg - don't know why you assumed I'm a lady, though of course Chris can be either, though more often associated with male. I know two other Chris's. Used to work in an office with a Christine, shortened to Chris and I was referred to as the Chris with the moustache!


@ChrisLF

My earlier reply was for replacing an HDD (or older SSD) with a new SSD.

If you need to transfer files and programs to a new computer, data file transfer is rather straightforward.  Just network the two systems over WiFi and do a copy of all data folders and files to the new system.  For your sanity, use the same folder locations.  Do this process in chunks, perhaps two hours of transfer time for each operation.

For program transfer, you can't just copy over files.  To be absolutely clear, this comment is only for *Windows *systems.  I know *nothing *about *MacOS*, and wouldn't dare to pretend otherwise.

You have two options

Install all your programs all over again on your new system.  For Adobe LrC you will first need to log the program out from Adobe, so you can re-use the license.  This approach has the benefit of "starting over" with a clean, new system, free of any digital detritus from your old system.
If your old system is Windows 10 and the new one Windows 11, this approach may be safer.

A very useful program to help manage installs and future uninstalls is https://www.revouninstaller.com/buy-now-revo-uninstaller-pro/.  There are free and paid versions.  I find that I can use the extra features in the paid version, but that may not be true for you.  The benefit here is that if you need to remove a program sometime in the future, Revo Uninstaller does a much more thorough job than the normal program uninstaller.


The other approach is to buy a program that "automagically" transfers programs and configuration settings (and maybe even data) from your old system to your new system, again over WiFi.  Mostly it works well, and I ahve used this progrma to save a lot of time when transferring my wife's install from an old desktop to a new laptop.  However, the pgram I suggest did not transfer over Microsoft Office or Norton Seciurty.  https://www.revouninstaller.com/buy-now-revo-uninstaller-pro/  Setup took less than one hour and then I let it run to completion.


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## ChrisLF (Aug 21, 2022)

Thanks Phil for your detailed response. I usually do fresh installs on new computers. Being forced to do that anyway to some extent as my version of Microsoft Office is 2010 Professional and is no longer supported. Fortunately one of sons has spare licences for 365.


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## murali (Aug 30, 2022)

ChrisLF said:


> Yes, I'm really appreciating the help and guidance as well.
> 
> I shall probably go for 32GB of RAM but might increase it.
> 
> ...


I got a 1 TB SSD (my old machine had a 512 GB SSD) for my new computer. I split it into 2 partitions with about 400GB for C: and the rest for D:. My LR catalog is in D Drive. My images are in a 8TB external spinning drive and I back that up to another 8TB spinning drive and a Drobo RAID system. I import all my new images into the D: drive. After processing, I move the images and associated sidecar files to the external drive. Unless I make further edits, all the edits are done when everything is in the SSD. PS and LR performance is terrific.


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## ChrisLF (Aug 13, 2022)

As said on another thread I'm going to have to look at replacing my existing PC tower to run LR Classic satisfactorily.

I've searched out the minimum requirements from Adobe but would appreciate it if recommendations could be given for off the shelf PCs that will provide the required performance and at a reasonable price. Not looking for blistering performance, just something to do the job. I'm in the UK.

Currently running Windows 10, I assume Classic runs OK  on Windows 11?

Thanks, Chris


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## GregJ (Aug 30, 2022)

murali said:


> I got a 1 TB SSD (my old machine had a 512 GB SSD) for my new computer. I split it into 2 partitions with about 400GB for C: and the rest for D:. My LR catalog is in D Drive. My images are in a 8TB external spinning drive and I back that up to another 8TB spinning drive and a Drobo RAID system. I import all my new images into the D: drive. After processing, I move the images and associated sidecar files to the external drive. Unless I make further edits, all the edits are done when everything is in the SSD. PS and LR performance is terrific


Sounds good, but you didn't need to partition that 1 TB boot drive.  You don't need the RAID for what you are doing, but I know people who would say you do.  But I think they are wrong.

You should be backing up that data drive at least twice, so you need another 8TB external drive and just sync to it every week or so (use GoodSync) and keep it off site.  

Also, keep your eye out for 8TB SSDs.  They are coming soon cheaper and faster.  That's my biggest desire right now.  Glorious will be the day when we can put our HDDs into the trash bin of history.


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