# Using Elements 9 with LR3.3



## RandyB (Nov 24, 2010)

I'm considering picking up Elements 9 to use with LR3.3 and would appreciate any advice. First off, what types of edit features would I gain if using as my editor versus built-in LR support. Secondly, how hard is it going back and forth with metadata? I thought it might be nice to pre-process images first in Elements using their Facial Recognition engine. I saw sold older threads here in the forums about importing Elements catalogs but not sure if any compat improvements with Elements 9.

Thanks ... Randy


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## b_gossweiler (Nov 25, 2010)

Randy,

I use PSE9 (previously earlier versions) with LR3.2 and LR3.3RC.

Let me first explain briefly how an edit from LR in PSE works:


[li]You choose "Edit in PSE" from LR (e.g. on a Raw photo)[/li]
[li]LR renders a TIFF or PSD from the Raw, includes all metadata into the TIFF, launches PSE and passes the TIFF to PSE[/li]
[li]Edits are being done in PSE[/li]
[li]The TIFF/PSD is saved in PSE, after which it appears in the LR catalog right next to the original Raw image (stacked with it if so chosen)[/li]
This means you will generate a so called "derivate" image to be processed with PSE for every edit in PSE. If you produce one new image from several LR originals (e.g. Panorama), you'll have to import the newly created image into LR and synch the metadata manually on it.

[quote author=RandyB link=topic=1169'.msg78542#msg78542 date=129'641423]
First off, what types of edit features would I gain if using as my editor versus built-in LR support. 
[/quote]

You will get pixel based editing, which in some occasions is the easier/better or only way to correct something in your image. For example


[li]Retouching (e.g. get somebody out of the picture, replace a brick wall with a sunset)[/li]
[li]Content-aware fill
[/li]
[li]Photomerge (Panorama, HDR)[/li]
[li]Working with layers[/li]
[quote author=RandyB link=topic=1169'.msg78542#msg78542 date=129'641423]
Secondly, how hard is it going back and forth with metadata? I thought it might be nice to pre-process images first in Elements using their Facial Recognition engine. I saw sold older threads here in the forums about importing Elements catalogs but not sure if any compat improvements with Elements 9.
[/quote]

As I mentioned before, passing metadata into the TIFF derivate passe to PSE is no problem at all.

As far as tagging photos in PSE (face recognition) before (or after) importing them into LR, I don't really have a good advice for a workflow for you right now. Maybe somebody else comes up with a good idea or has experience with it.

Besides face recognition, I would strongly suggest you tag your images in LR, not in PSE (and maybe even throw the face recognition idea over board all together).

Importing a PSE catalog (which is the result of PSE organizer and not PSE editor) always creates a single LR catalog, so I'm not so sure if this would be a good way to go.

I would suggest you download a trial of PSE and play with it for a while, to see what you'll get.

Beat


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## RandyB (Nov 25, 2010)

Thanks Beat for the quick response. So is process of a derivative TIFF the same with both PSE and PS? 

Regarding the PSE catalog import, is there an option to import the PSE catalog into an existing LR catalog, or does it always create a new one?

The facial recognition engine looked quite nice and time-saving although I have gotten name tagging in LR down pretty well now. I wonder if the facial recognition feature is one that LR users are asking for and has good chance for LR4, or it is just more of a novelty thing for apps like iPhoto, Picasa and Elements. 

Thanks again...&gt;Randy


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## dj_paige (Nov 25, 2010)

I haven't ever used Face Tagging in PSE, but if your goal is to get these face tags into Lightroom, my gut feel is that it will be more trouble than it is worth (but that's my judgment of worth, yours may be different). I agree with Beat ... don't bother.

To use 2 "organizers" (one in PSE and Lightroom's Library module) to accomplish your goal, you need a rock-solid understanding of both and how they can interact with one another. It doesn't sound like you have that understanding, and this is a recipe for trouble.

Oh, and then there are those long-standing bugs in the way that PSE writes tags to individual files that Adobe hasn't fixed since Version 5 of PSE (and maybe earlier) which can hinder your efforts to succeed at this task (and may make it impossible, especially if you use RAW photos).


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## b_gossweiler (Nov 25, 2010)

[quote author=RandyB link=topic=1169'.msg78547#msg78547 date=129'644842]
Thanks Beat for the quick response. So is process of a derivative TIFF the same with both PSE and PS? 
[/quote]

I am not a PS user, but I think more or less, yes.

There is no

[li]"Open as Smart Objects"[/li]
[li]"Open as Layers"[/li]
[li]"Merge to Panorama"[/li]
[li]"Merge to HDR"[/li]
with PSE. For Panorama and HDR, you have to send multiple TIFFs to PSE, execute the function in PSE and save a new file from PSE, importing it into LR afterwards if wanted so.

[quote author=RandyB link=topic=1169'.msg78547#msg78547 date=129'644842]
Regarding the PSE catalog import, is there an option to import the PSE catalog into an existing LR catalog, or does it always create a new one?
[/quote]

AFAIK, no, it always creates a new one. Of course you could - as another step - import the newly created catalog into an existing one in LR. But as Paige sais, this is probably much more trouble than benefit.

[quote author=RandyB link=topic=1169'.msg78547#msg78547 date=129'644842]
 The facial recognition engine looked quite nice and time-saving although I have gotten name tagging in LR down pretty well now. I wonder if the facial recognition feature is one that LR users are asking for and has good chance for LR4, or it is just more of a novelty thing for apps like iPhoto, Picasa and Elements. 
 [/quote]

I have never used face recognition, as I rarely take photos of people I know. I doubt that face recognition will make it soon into LR, as LR is more a Pro/SemiPro tool, whereas face recognition is problable targeted to the consumer comunity primarily. But this is only my humble opinion, not knowledge.

Beat


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## Tucniak (Nov 25, 2010)

[quote author=b_gossweiler link=topic=1169'.msg78551#msg78551 date=129'647148]

There is no

[li]"Open as Smart Objects"[/li]
[li]"Open as Layers"[/li]
[li]"Merge to Panorama"[/li]
[li]"Merge to HDR"[/li]
with PSE. For Panorama and HDR, you have to send multiple TIFFs to PSE, execute the function in PSE and save a new file from PSE, importing it into LR afterwards if wanted so.
[/quote]

You are right Beat, in that this doesn't exist in lightroom out of the box. But there is a nice little plugin to give you this functionality:
http://thephotogeek.com/lightroom/elemental/

I've been using it with PSE6 for a while, and now with PSE9 trial. I haven't tested everything with PSE9 yet, but so far it works nicely.


no one has mentioned it, but unless I am mistaken, the ink to PSE9 is not supported in LR out of the box. You have to add it as an external editor.

Benoit


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## b_gossweiler (Nov 25, 2010)

Thanks for the info about the plugin, Benoit, I might give it a try sometimes. Does it allow for a created Photomerge Panorama automatically be re-imported into LR, maybe with the metadata of one of the contributors of the Pano?

[quote author=Tucniak link=topic=1169'.msg78598#msg78598 date=129'712219]
no one has mentioned it, but unless I am mistaken, the link to PSE9 is not supported in LR out of the box. You have to add it as an external editor.
[/quote]
AFAIK, this is not correct, if PSE9 was installed before LR. I use PSE9 with an "Open in PSE" option in LR3.2/LR3.3RC.

Beat


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## ernie (Nov 25, 2010)

While we're sort of on the subject of PSE9, I've been thinking of upgrading from my 7, although I rarely use Elements any more, LR does so much. Can someone point me to a good explanation or tutorial about smart objects? What are they, when should you use them, not use them, etc. When they first came out they were only in full PS and since I didn't have that, I never paid any attention to it. And then I used only LR more and more, so....


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## Victoria Bampton (Nov 26, 2010)

Ernie, have you used desktop publishing software at all? Smart objects are the same kind of idea - the original data is retained and resized/adjusted on the fly. For example, with a normal PS file, if you shrunk it down really small you'd throw away a load of pixels and then if you tried to enlarge it again, you'd see massive pixelation. Smart Objects keep all of that data there and when you upsized the image again, you wouldn't see any decrease in quality. When dealing with raw files, it also means that you can double-click the smart object layer and open it into the ACR dialog to change your adjustments. The downside is that to do pixel-based retouching, you do have to rasterize the smart object (changing it to proper pixel data).


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## ernie (Nov 26, 2010)

OK Victoria, that helps some. I used Microsoft publisher a little a few years ago, so I understand what you mean about changing the size. I'm not sure I see what good that does when editing a picture, but I'm sure that's just because I've never worked with it. At least now I know more than I did. Thanks


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## Victoria Bampton (Nov 26, 2010)

Ernie, I tend to use it when merging 2 photos - perhaps combining a person from one photo into another photo. It's great to be able to resize the SO repeatedly without losing quality.


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## RandyB (Nov 26, 2010)

Thanks everyone for the tips on PSE9. I see that Costco.com has great deal on it for $49, so at that price I am sure there is some value to it, especially on the editing side. Regarding workflow, I don't think it is worth my effort trying to mess between the PSE and LR catalogs. However, I may try using the facial recognition engine for fun by exporting the metadata to image files first, and then just import into LR. It probably won't save me a lot of time as folks have suggested.

As Paige pointed out, there may be some bugs how PSE writes out certain metadata against certain types of RAW files. And I find it amazing that Adobe hasn't addressed these issues if they've been known since PSE5. I guess there is always concern about backward compatibility, but that is why you have option settings.


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## ernie (Nov 27, 2010)

Wow $49. I sure wish we had a costco here.
Yeah, merging things would be a good use for that. I don't do that, but it's nice to know if sometime I do want to. Never say never...


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## RandyB (Nov 27, 2010)

The $49 PSE deal is with Costco.com so you don't need to live near one.

Regarding my original Face Recognition inquiry, I found a neat little tool called Phoshare, which helps with this. It uses ExifTool so you'll need that installed. Since I don't have PSE yet, I did a test using iPhoto and was able to export JPEG and TIFF files with the Faces metadata written out as Keywords. I'm not sure where Faces info is stored in PSE nor the format, but iPhoto has a Faces.db database for this data. I don't know if I'd bother, but thought I'd throw this out in case others might be interested at some point.


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## MMarz (Nov 27, 2010)

I posted this elsewhere but I let the post linger since I was away for the holiday..

While I have CS4 & CS5 I find both are way overkill for my workflow and I rarely use them. I just purchased PSE and find it to be fine for all but the most complex edits. The problem I am having is that after handing and edit to PSE using the Edit In command, and then saving the derivative TIFF in PSE, the changes don't show up in LR as expected. The TIFF is there, but edits aren't and the Save commend in PSE saves a new TIFF in the donor folder. I have no problems with edits done in CS4 or any of the numerous plugins I use, just PSE.

I am using PSE v9 and LR v3.2

------------------edit----------------
Problem solved... I noticed that when I selected File/Save, the dialog window that opened was the Save As dialog.. By default the save option is set to Always Ask before overwriting the original file. Under Edit/Preferences/Saving Files, change the first choice in the File Saving Options so that the option for On First Save is Save Over Current File... Edits now show up in LR.

Back to our regularly scheduled programing


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## b_gossweiler (Nov 27, 2010)

Michael,

Have you made sure you use "Save" and not "Save as" in PSE9? You have to replace to TIFF rendered by LR when exiting PSE. Works fine for me.

Beat


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## MMarz (Nov 27, 2010)

Thank you, yes.. 

As noted, I have no issues with using the Edit In command with CS4, CS5, or a host of other plugins and as you suggest, yes I always use the Save command, not Save As. All other Edit In activities work fine. Seems to be an issue isolated to PSE


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## Tucniak (Nov 27, 2010)

[quote author=b_gossweiler link=topic=1169'.msg78614#msg78614 date=129'724869]
 Does it allow for a created Photomerge Panorama automatically be re-imported into LR, maybe with the metadata of one of the contributors of the Pano?
[/quote]
no, it doesn't reimport the new pano automatically, at last I haven't found a way to do it. I'm actually getting annoyed with it a bit as when you save, PSE saves in the last folder in which you saved, not in the folder the constituent photos come from. I got caught a few times where I saved a pano, go to synchronise folder in LR and it doesn't find anything!

[quote author=b_gossweiler link=topic=1169'.msg78614#msg78614 date=129'724869]
AFAIK, this is not correct, if PSE9 was installed before LR. I use PSE9 with an "Open in PSE" option in LR3.2/LR3.3RC.
[/quote]
I stand corrected! This didn't work with PSE6, so I didn't look too hard when I intalled PSE9 trial.


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## ernie (Nov 28, 2010)

Hey Randy, thanks for the tip[ about Costco.com. I just ordered it. Ernie


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## eschurr (Nov 28, 2010)

this thread has been very helpful to me, thanks. I've been using PSE for many years and am now considering making LR my main workspace, and only using PSE for pixel-based edits such as panos, etc.

a few questions about moving between LR and PSE:

1. am i correct that you must SAVE in PSE if you want the newly-created file to show up in LR automatically? If you SAVE AS, you need to import the new file (which would be a major pain every time).  
2. am I also correct that the only way to do this is to change the setting for saving files to "on first save, save over current file"? i don't understand the consequences of this setting. the help system doesn't say much about it.
3. Am i also correct that you must save as a PSD or TIFF in PSE if you want the file to show up automatically in LR? If you try to save as a JPEG, you have to use SAVE AS, and then you're back to the problem in #1
4. How do you deal with Panos? If you select multiple photos in LR, open in PSE, create a pano, then when you save that file it never shows up in LR automatically, does it? that seems like a real drag


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## dj_paige (Nov 28, 2010)

[quote author=eschurr link=topic=1169'.msg78798#msg78798 date=129'967655]
this thread has been very helpful to me, thanks. I've been using PSE for many years and am now considering making LR my main workspace, and only using PSE for pixel-based edits such as panos, etc.

a few questions about moving between LR and PSE:

1. am i correct that you must SAVE in PSE if you want the newly-created file to show up in LR automatically? If you SAVE AS, you need to import the new file (which would be a major pain every time).  
2. am I also correct that the only way to do this is to change the setting for saving files to "on first save, save over current file"? i don't understand the consequences of this setting. the help system doesn't say much about it.
3. Am i also correct that you must save as a PSD or TIFF in PSE if you want the file to show up automatically in LR? If you try to save as a JPEG, you have to use SAVE AS, and then you're back to the problem in #1
[/quote]

I have to assume you are referring to what happens when you use the Lightroom command Edit In... to send the photo to PSE, although you don't say that's what you are doing.

1. Yes, you are correct. I fail to see a problem here, just use SAVE in PSE and there's no major pain every time.

2. Ctrl-S in the PSE editor is all you need

3. Yes, I believe this is correct. Again, I fail to see the problem; if you do things the way its supposed to work, its not a problem. If you want to do things some other way, yes it would be a major pain


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## MMarz (Nov 28, 2010)

[quote author=eschurr link=topic=1169'.msg78798#msg78798 date=129'967655]
2. am I also correct that the only way to do this is to change the setting for saving files to "on first save, save over current file"? i don't understand the consequences of this setting. the help system doesn't say much about it.
[/quote]

By default my installation of PSE didn't have this check box ticked and as a result, invoking the Save command was in fact launching the Save As command which, as you note, would save the PSD or TIFF in the last used folder and would require that you either import it to LR or sync the folder. Either way, you would end up with the original source file, the TIFF in LR created during the Edit In command step as well as the final PSD or TIFF saved in PSE. By checking the On First Save... check box launching Save actually saves and brings the edits back to LR. Whether you save the PSD in PSE is up to you. I save it and sync the folder in LR.


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## eschurr (Nov 28, 2010)

yes, I am using "Edit in" in LR. Sorry for not being clear.

my installation of PSE didn't have the right settings for "Save" set to make this work, so i changed it as per this thread and it concerned me that i would be getting a different result when i SAVE normally in PSE. i expect sometimes i will be using PSE editor without coming from LR.

One thing i don't like about what i'm learning is that if i make any changes in PSE i have to save the file as a PSD or TIFF, which are very large. I would be happy to have a JPEG, but if i do that LR won't automatically import the file (and having to find it and import it would be a pain).  Am i correct that you have to save as a PSD or TIFF in PSE to have LR automatically catalog it?


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## b_gossweiler (Nov 28, 2010)

[quote author=eschurr link=topic=1169'.msg78817#msg78817 date=129'975873]
One thing i don't like about what i'm learning is that if i make any changes in PSE i have to save the file as a PSD or TIFF, which are very large. I would be happy to have a JPEG, but if i do that LR won't automatically import the file (and having to find it and import it would be a pain).  Am i correct that you have to save as a PSD or TIFF in PSE to have LR automatically catalog it?
[/quote]

LR will only render a PSD or TIFF to be passed to (and saved back from) PSE. Going back and forth between LR and PSE with a JPEG does not make sense as you loose quality and get artifacts with the compression taking place upon every save. For this reason, LR only supports PSD/TIFF to be used.

Beat


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## eschurr (Nov 28, 2010)

Thanks. 

i tried using this plugin  http://thephotogeek.com/lightroom/elemental/ and it's pretty cool, but when i save images (like a Pano) in PSE it's not automatically in the LR catalog unless i synch the folder. Any idea why? I think i have the "save" settings properly set in PSE for using "Edit in" in LR.


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## RandyB (Nov 24, 2010)

I'm considering picking up Elements 9 to use with LR3.3 and would appreciate any advice. First off, what types of edit features would I gain if using as my editor versus built-in LR support. Secondly, how hard is it going back and forth with metadata? I thought it might be nice to pre-process images first in Elements using their Facial Recognition engine. I saw sold older threads here in the forums about importing Elements catalogs but not sure if any compat improvements with Elements 9.

Thanks ... Randy


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## MMarz (Nov 28, 2010)

[quote author=eschurr link=topic=1169'.msg78817#msg78817 date=129'975873]
One thing i don't like about what i'm learning is that if i make any changes in PSE i have to save the file as a PSD or TIFF, which are very large. I would be happy to have a JPEG, but if i do that LR won't automatically import the file (and having to find it and import it would be a pain).  Am i correct that you have to save as a PSD or TIFF in PSE to have LR automatically catalog it?
[/quote]

Getting the image back into LR is actually quite ease.. just use the Synchronize command.. Right click on the folder you saved the file to and select Synchronize.. Takes but a second for LR to report back and import your TIFF and PSD.


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## eschurr (Nov 29, 2010)

Thanks. i was hoping the image would just "be there" in LR, but guess it's not. The synch command is pretty easy to use, so that works for me.

appreciate all the help


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