# Ordering [sorting] by keyword



## Chuxter (Aug 3, 2012)

I've been trying to figure out a way to use a single keyword to *order* photos before I use them to make a web gallery. Done a lot of looking and I find a few other people who have asked this question here and elsewhere, but none of the "experts" has supplied a good method. Mostly, the experts question the sanity of the person asking the question. 

I have a large group of photos [over 600] that are "grouped" into about 30 keywords. There are not enough colors and numbers to tag/flag/rate them normally. If I can't use keywords, how else can I do it?

I've thought of putting the keywords into the Title or Caption fields? Is there some way to automate using the keywords to create Titles and/or Captions [so that I don't have to manually type in 600+ fields]? And will this even work [IE, using the Title to change the order]?

TIA


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## clee01l (Aug 3, 2012)

There is no way to use a keyword as a token to populate Titles or Captions. The keywords are in a field as a single comma separated list  How would you determine which of the keywords in the list are to be used as a Title and which are to be used as a caption and which not used at all?  It would be nice to auto Populate Titles and Captions but there is no convenient way as long as the metadata keyword field is a comma separated list of phrases. 

If you want images in a particular order in the web gallery, You first need to know what the website is going to use a sorting criteria?  Most often this is the File name but it could be other criteria.  In a LR static collection you can apply a user sort to get images in an order that you dictate. On Export, you rename the exported JPEGs being created using a sequence in the file name that will cause the Web site to maintain the sort order you defined as your user sort because of the sequential file names


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## b_gossweiler (Aug 3, 2012)

Chuxter,

There is a plug-in (John Beardy's Search,Replace&Transfer) which allows you to transfer the keywords to any other metadata field, but

It would transfer all keywords assigned to a photo into the target field
The only metadata field that would also be suitable for sorting is (Color-)Label (it would take any value though)

So in order to go with this method, you'd have to make sure your "sorting" keywords appear at the very beginning of the keyword list (which is possible by prefixing them with a special character, i.e. "#Sort001") and then transfer the keywords to the Label field. After that, you can sort by Label Color.

Beat


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## Chuxter (Aug 3, 2012)

Cletus, I underlined single keyword to preclude people from throwing back the issue of "how would you determine which of the keywords to use" ploy. My keywords consist of a single phrase [no comas].

If I understand your other paragraph, I will have to:

1. Somehow get the images in the the order I want. That's what I meant by the term *order*.
2a. Find a web gallery plugin that will retain my *order*.
2b. Do as you suggest...export the images and assign a new name sequence that follows my *order*...then use a web gallery plugin...

The part I'm having trouble with it #1. I can't [easily] get the pix in an order per my assigned keys/labels/captions. I don't relish dragging 640 pix into position!


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## Chuxter (Aug 3, 2012)

Again [just like Cletus], you missed my single statement. Even a non-guru like me can figure out that multiple keywords is a killer.

I appreciate the link, but I have already assigned captions to all 640 pix. It only took about an hour.

Now, how do I use LR 4 to SORT? All I've been able to do is to SELECT by specifying a caption. I want to SELECT the 640 pix that I have rated...then sort them alphabetically by the caption field. Is this possible?

Thanks for your reply...


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## clee01l (Aug 3, 2012)

Taking Beat's cue, John Beardworth's Search,Replace&Transfer plugin will transfer your single phrase keyword field to the Label Text field. ( I did not click to the single keyword phrase per image in your original post. As long as you have only one keyword phrase per image, the following should work. )  
The Label Color is associated with one of 5 Label Text values as defined in a Color Label Set plus white for "Other" and gray for "Empty".  If you ignore Color Label assignments and use more than 7 Label Text values, the sorting will probably works as you need it to. Once sorted by color label you probably will still have to rename to a sequence on export to get the Web gallery of your choice to honor your image sequence.  So this should take care of #1 on your list leaving you to deal with 2a & 2b.

*Addendum.* Caption is not a sortable field in the Toolbar. You will still have to move your sortable phrase into the only sortable text field -  Label Text. The only other sortable alpha-numeric field is File Name and I am not familiar with John's plugin to know if you can use it for renaming files.


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## b_gossweiler (Aug 3, 2012)

clee01l said:


> ... Once sorted by color label you probably will still have to rename to a sequence on export to get the Web gallery of your choice to honor your image sequence.  So this should take care of #1 on your list leaving you to deal with 2a & 2b.


LR's Web Gallery will honor any sort order established in LR. So if you established a collection for use by the Web Gallery and sort it by Label (after transfering the keywords captions to Label), you should be fine. 



clee01l said:


> *Addendum.* Caption is not a sortable field in the Toolbar. You will still have to move your sortable phrase into the only sortable text field -  Label Text. The only other sortable alpha-numeric field is File Name and I am not familiar with John's plugin to know if you can use it for renaming files.


Most common metadata fields (including Title, Caption, Keywords, Label) can be used to rename using LR's naming templates.

Beat


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## Chuxter (Aug 3, 2012)

b_gossweiler said:


> LR's Web Gallery will honor any sort order established in LR. So if you established a collection for use by the Web Gallery and sort it by Label (after transfering the keywords captions to Label), you should be fine.
> 
> 
> Most common metadata fields (including Title, Caption, Keywords, Label) can be used to rename using LR's naming templates.
> ...



Thanks! This seems to be the answer I wanted...but I don't understand it [sadly] and need more info. Sorry.

1. How do I "establish a sort order in LR"? The only "sort" capability I find is actually a "select" capability. If I click on "Text" in the "Library Filter" banner at the top, I can choose between File Name, Copy Name, Title, Caption Keywords, Searchable Metadata, Searchable IPTC, Searchable EXIF, and Any Field. When I choose one of those and provide a test string to use, the result is a SELECTION, not a SORT. This obviously is not where I should be in LR, but I can't find anything else.

2. If I go to Help > Library Module Help [or any choice, actually], I get an "Adobe Community Help" window, but I can only choose between 3 OTHER Adobe products: Reader, Organizer, or Elements...I find no LR help!

3. If I Google something like "Sort Lightroom", I get non-helpful suggestions like "view them in Grid view and then drag (in the thumbnail) and drop in order to reposition" [from Ms. Kost].

4. Is there no straightforward way to simply tell LR to change from it's default import order? Yes, I know about the View > Sort drop-down menu, but it doesn't have any "interesting" choices...things like Keywords, Caption, Titles, or Labels!!!

5. I don't seem to have any good options. The suggestion to get them in the correct order and then rename them with a new scheme that will be sorted properly when the Filename sort choice is checked doesn't work. Why? Because I don't have a way to GET them in the correct order w/o manual drag/drop on all 640 pix! DUH! If I could GET them in the correct order, I'd be done...

6. What I want is an automatic way to arrange them by using the Keywords, Labels, Titles, or Captions. I can't believe that we are already to Version 4 w/o some genius noticing this hole!

Frustrated, but hopeful...


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## clee01l (Aug 3, 2012)

Chuxter said:


> Thanks! This seems to be the answer I wanted...but I don't understand it [sadly] and need more info. Sorry.
> 
> 1. How do I "establish a sort order in LR"?


The toolbar is located at the bottom of the grid 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




The Sort Field is located there. It contains several metadata fields that are sortable. Those that contain Alphanumeric text have been discussed previously. And chuxter, just like me earlier, you missed my previous reference to the sort field on the *toolbar*.


> 2. If I go to Help > Library Module Help [or any choice, actually], I get an "Adobe Community Help" window, but I can only choose between 3 OTHER Adobe products: Reader, Organizer, or Elements...I find no LR help!


If you click on {Help}{Lightroom Help} or {F1} your web browser will open this page http://help.adobe.com/en_US/lightroom/using/index.html


> 3. If I Google something like "Sort Lightroom", I get non-helpful suggestions like "view them in Grid view and then drag (in the thumbnail) and drop in order to reposition" [from Ms. Kost].


What you have referenced hee is called {User Order} in the Toolbar dropdown list. It is available in grid views of a single (but not multiple selected folders. Or in a Static Collection But not in a Smart Collection.





> 4. Is there no straightforward way to simply tell LR to change from it's default import order? Yes, I know about the View > Sort drop-down menu, but it doesn't have any "interesting" choices...things like Keywords, Caption, Titles, or Labels!!!


On the import dialog there is a Sort field. It has a limited choice of metadata fields to choose from. This only affects the {Added Order}.  Images referenced in the LR database have no native order There is no order until you choose a sort order from the Sort field on the toolbar. 





> 5. I don't seem to have any good options. The suggestion to get them in the correct order and then rename them with a new scheme that will be sorted properly when the Filename sort choice is checked doesn't work. Why? Because I don't have a way to GET them in the correct order w/o manual drag/drop on all 640 pix! DUH! If I could GET them in the correct order, I'd be done...


See my reply to statement 1. 





> 6. What I want is an automatic way to arrange them by using the Keywords, Labels, Titles, or Captions. I can't believe that we are already to Version 4 w/o some genius noticing this hole!


It's not a hole really. Files never have an order unless imposed by the system in control. The file system in Explorer has no order. files are not even written contiguously on the HD. The Explorer window has a default sort order and you can sort files there based upon fields in the Explorer window.  Likewise LR has a default sort order for the grid view It only affects the view of the grid and the filmstrip. You again are in control of that order using the sort field in the Toolbar.  Similarly, the Website where you send your exported images doesn't have a sort order. It uses a filesystem just like windows. You or some application programming on the website computer has to tell the webpage what order to arrange images that it sends to someone's browser at some remote computer.  Web Pages can be flexible and give the page owner control over sorting or inflexible and give the owner no control over the order an image gets displayed. If a Web page is very versatile, it can give the owner and the viewer control over how the viewer wants to order the images displayed. 
LR has several 'automatic' ways that you the LR user can sort and view images including {User Order}.  It can only control what goes on inside of LR (i.e. the grid view) this is what the sort field in the Toolbar is designed to do.  I will restate, LR has no control over images stored in the same computer or a website computer once the images have left the confines of the LR application. 

Other than trying to force an order on a website gallery, you have done little to define what that order should be.  Perhaps if we knew a little more about what your end result needed to be, there might be other more convenient ways for you to achieve this.


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## Chuxter (Aug 3, 2012)

clee01l said:


> The toolbar is located at the bottom of the grid
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm not going to tell you that. But I can give you a realistic example:

I have pictures of all employees of a small company. They have names. I want to type their names into some LR field and have it ORDER the photos in alphabetical order. I know enough to put the last name first if I want it to sort by the last name. I know enough to understand that if I write "Last, First" I will have TWO keys [if I put the name in the keyword field]...I can deal w/ that. What I STILL haven't found is a way to have LR automate this process for me! Again, that is not exactly what I'm doing, but it's close enough.

Thanks for sticking w/ me!


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## clee01l (Aug 3, 2012)

Now that I have a better understanding of the problem, One other question:  What web site Gallery Software are you using?  (Remember, it is the Web pages that will do the actual ordering of the images).  Knowing what the Web Server is capable of will determine how to instruct LR to deliver the image.


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## Chuxter (Aug 3, 2012)

clee01l said:


> Now that I have a better understanding of the problem, One other question:  What web site Gallery Software are you using?  (Remember, it is the Web pages that will do the actual ordering of the images).  Knowing what the Web Server is capable of will determine how to instruct LR to deliver the image.



I must have said this 5 times:

_"...I use the LR [default] HTML Web Gallery plugin..."_

It creates a folder with all the pieces of a gallery. I upload them to MY PERSONAL web space on 1and1.com. As far as I can tell, 1and 1 doesn't fiddle with my image order...what I see on my computer is what I see on my gallery pages [WISOMCIWISOMGP]...


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## b_gossweiler (Aug 3, 2012)

Chuxter,

I'm not sure whether you've now solved your problem or not (you still sound frustrated), so let me give you step-by-step instructions on how to do it:



In the Library module, enter the Sort-Key into the Label Field (either manually, or by transfering keywords into the label field using the Search&Replace plug-in, whichever you prefer) 
Still in Library, create a collection containing all images to be included in the Web Gallery (either a smart collection using a criteria like star ratings as selection, or a manual collection by dragging the images into it) 
Still in Library, view the collection by clicking on it 
Still in Library, sort the collection by Label Text (eihter using the view menu or the dropdown in the toolbar) 
Change to the Web module, while your view is on the collection 
==> Your web gallery will be sorted by label text.

Beat


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## erro (Aug 3, 2012)

Is it possible to have 640 different labels? I thought label colors and names go together, in "label sets". Or can label names be used without connection to label colors?


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## b_gossweiler (Aug 3, 2012)

erro said:


> Is it possible to have 640 different labels?


That's a question the OP has to think about, obviously he can.



erro said:


> I thought label colors and names go together, in "label sets". Or can label names be used without connection to label colors?


No they don't. "Label" in Exif is only a text field, with no relation to a color name at all. Only LR (and maybe other Adobe products) make up the relation to colors. You can put any text into Label, and the label sign will show white in LR when the text is not mapped in the Color Label Set. But they will show up in the metadata filter. So what's in the Color Label Set in LR determines what is shown as a badge and what you can assign using shortcuts or badge-dropdowns, but not what can be contained in the Label field.

Beat

P.S: For that reason you sometimes see white label badges when a photo with an existing color label in a certain language (i.e. English) is imported into LR using a color label set in a different language (i.e. Swedish).


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## clee01l (Aug 3, 2012)

I followed my instructions that I gave previously.

I created a special catalog for this test. It has 8 images which i put in a static collection that I named Web
I added a keyword phrase to each of the images from Adam Apple to Willy Wonka
I then used John's Search and Replace Plugin to transfer the keyword  field to the Label Text field
Next I transfered the Keyword field to the Caption Field using John's Search and Replace Plugin
In the "Web" Collection, I sorted on Label Text
I selected all the images in the "Web" collection
In the Web Module, I Chose the LR HTML Gallery.
Since I no longer have a personal Website, I exported to my public folder on my Dropbox account.
A Package is created that consists of an index page, a content folder containing individual hard coded web pages for each image and all the necessary 'bells & whistles' to pull the web page together and make it function.
The gallery populates based upon the upload order which is hard coded in the HTML.  The image files retain their original file names and are stored in the content/images/ folder.

This Link from my Dropbox Public folder works for me. I think it will work for everyone.  Let me know if this does what you want.  The Caption Field is at the bottom the large image page  
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/2411826/LRHelp/WebTest2/index.html


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## clee01l (Aug 3, 2012)

erro said:


> Is it possible to have 640 different labels? I thought label colors and names go together, in "label sets". Or can label names be used without connection to label colors?


Label text is associated with the 5 label colors by using a Color Label Set.  Label Text is independent of Label color but Label color is not independent of a Label Set associating Label Text with those 5 colors  Only one Color Label Set can be default at a time  Images that have label text not associated with the current default Color Label Set are assigned the 'custom' label color which is white.


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## Chuxter (Aug 3, 2012)

b_gossweiler said:


> That's a question the OP has to think about, obviously he can.
> 
> 
> No they don't. "Label" in Exif is only a text field, with no relation to a color name at all. Only LR (and maybe other Adobe products) make up the relation to colors. You can put any text into Label, and the label sign will show white in LR when the text is not mapped in the Color Label Set. But they will show up in the metadata filter. So what's in the Color Label Set in LR determines what is shown as a badge and what you can assign using shortcuts or badge-dropdowns, but not what can be contained in the Label field.
> ...



As far as I know, there is no numeric limit to the number of "Labels" you can have...well, you can't have more "Label" text fields than there are pix. 

My example was silly. I did that on purpose to shock you guru's out of your belief that you were guru's.  In reality, I have only about 28 labels for the 640 pix. And the pix are not employees of some mythical company. But I'm still not going to tell you EXACTLY what I'm doing, as it's none of your business. No insult intended...

I agree that a "Label" was defined long before LR 1. Adobe has extended it to be more than the EXIF intended. It CAN be confusing to priests and lay alike.

All my images have that default white "Label" badge...which just indicates that I have assigned a "Label". Since I'm not using any colored "Labels", the color doesn't matter.


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## Brad Snyder (Aug 4, 2012)

Since Chuxter seems to have solved his or her own problems...... I see no reason to continue the thread.


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