# Edited images and uploaded ones have different names: how to find the originals the uploaded ones are copied from?



## Biff (Oct 21, 2018)

I want to sort the edited photos in differnet folders by a category for each folder and then rename the resized copies of the edited photos, remove their EXIF / meta data and upload them to my website with the Koken plug in. The file names increased by 1: 1.jpg, 2.jpg, etc. And the categories / albums shall get the folders names.

How could Lightroom do it automatically? And how could I make a reference from the uploaded photos to the original edited ones with the old filename? E.g. an old file name of an edited image is "img_2113" and the new one of the uploaded image is "3.jpg". How could I make a connection between them to know that "3.jpg" was resized / copied from "img_2113" respectively what could I do to know those 2 images are original and copy?


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## LouieSherwin (Oct 22, 2018)

HI Biff,

To solve your problem you probably need to rethink your workflow.  With what you describe above there is really no way to keep track. When you choose to rename your derivative files (those with different format, sizes, etc.) with a purely arbitrary name Lightroom does not keep track of what original source file was. 

The simplest way to keep track of derivatives is to have your master file and all the derivatives share in common the same name. For example if the original master is IMG_2113.cr2 then all the derivatives would also start with IMG-2113. 

For example:

IMG_2113.jpb - A full sized JPEG version
IMG_2113_1200.jpb - A resized version with 1200 pixel long edge
IMG_2113.tif - A full sized TIFF version

This is where Export and Publish come in. In the case where you want to upload to your website you can an Export or Publish  preset to create directory of derivative images using your specific rules for size, format and metadata. You can even rename the images also but I strongly recommend that you keep the original master file name as part of the new derivative.  You can then us the upload procedure for your web site to upload these images to the web and you can now track their origin.

If you don't have it already I highly recommend that you purchase Victoria's excellent eBooks on Lightroom. Read the sections on Export and Publish to learn more on the differences between the two and how to use all the different features. 

-louie


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## Biff (Oct 22, 2018)

Hello louie,

Thank you very much!

Yes, that seems to be a good method. .jpb means .jpg?

The "master derivatives" (the edited images, e.g. IMG_2113.tif) of the master files (e.g. IMG_2113.jpg or IMG_2113.cr2) have tif extension and their variations have a single number at the end with a "-" before, e.g. IMG_2113-1.tif, IMG_2113-2.tif.

Does anything speak against doing it that way: at the beginning of the tif images one could add a number increased by 1 starting by 1 and a "-" behind it, e.g. 1-IMG_2113-1.tif, 2-IMG_2113-1.tif, 3-IMG_2113-1.tif...103-IMG_2113-1.tif...1002-IMG_2113-1.tif, etc. And their deriatives, the images to be uploaded will get a file name identically with the first number(s) to the "-" (without the "-") in the filename of the tifs, e.g. 1.jpg, 2.jpg...103.jpg...1002.jpg, etc.

Alright, I will read those chapters in Victoria's excellent book or in her beginner's guide or the Adobe manual.

...oops, the forum offline ("Error 521 Web server is down" shown))?

Which software / script do you use on your website?


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## LouieSherwin (Oct 22, 2018)

I really don't understand why you would want or need to keep  so many (1000?)  different derivative versions of one master image (IMG_2113).  I am assuming that your master is a raw image. Snapshots and/or Virtual Copies are better way to keep track of any variations that you wish to try and are built in to the Lightroom catalog.  

Other than Snapshots and Virtual copies there is very little reason to keep derivative files around any way. These will allow you to easlily recreate any variation directly from the master image when ever you need it. And they stay tightly coupled with the master.

For publication to the web you really only need JPEG files. TIFF are simply overkill and take up way too much space and require too much resources to upload and view. 

My web site is hosted by PhotoDeck.com and they provide a Publish plug-in that integrates with my catalog. Other photo hosting services offer similar plug-ins. Additionally there are third party developers that offer publish plug-ins for may others such as Flickr and Zenfolio, etc..

-louie


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## Biff (Oct 22, 2018)

> I really don't understand why you would want or need to keep so many (1000?) different derivative versions of one master image (IMG_2113).


Very sorry for my misunderstanding expression: "IMG_2113" stands for an example, it is an example, other file names (of the masters) are e.g. IMG_2112, IMG_2111, IMG_1, IMG_5557, DSC_0025-2018-01-22 01-33 and many more.



> I am assuming that your master is a raw image.


The master images are raw and jpg.



> For publication to the web you really only need JPEG files.


Yes, I do not want to upload other file formats. No tifs.

Alright, many thanks, also for the link of you web site host!


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## PhilBurton (Oct 23, 2018)

Biff said:


> The master images are raw and jpg.


Biff,

Do you mean that you have some images where the master is a RAW file and other where the image master is a JPG?  Or, do you have both RAW and JPG masters of the same image?


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## Biff (Oct 23, 2018)

> Do you mean that you have some images where the master is a RAW file and other where the image master is a JPG?


Yes that is right, exactly.


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## Wernfried (Oct 23, 2018)

I use the Run Any Command  Plugin. On export I run this command:

```
"c:\Program Files (x86)\Exif\exiftool.exe" -overwrite_original -preserve -MasterDocumentID={FullMasterFile} "{FILE}"
```
 
By this I add full path name to Exif tag "MasterDocumentID" - no matter which name the exported file gets. Perhaps instead of  `{FullMasterFile}` you may use `{CopyName}` and/or `{UUID}` depending on your needs.

Of course, while export you must skip task "remove their EXIF". But you can use Metadata Wrangler Plugin or exiftool to remove only those exif tags which you like to be removed.


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## Biff (Oct 23, 2018)

Many thanks for the links.

Unfortunately I do not have any idea of how to use such command line commands / programs. But I will try to use your line, thank you, above or a variation of it.


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## Photocatseyes (Oct 23, 2018)

Using img2012 is dangerous because at a certain point your camera will reset and you will have the same filename. What you need is to use the import function, and on import I name my files daymonthyearsubject-sequence.extension 


 Today would be 221018mountains-1.nef, second image would be 221018mountains-2.nef and so on. You really only need the original on your computer because whenever you need an image, you can export it again to a preset you can make for jpeg, jpg, tiff, and you choose the moment you need it. You don't need to save exports because you can always repeat the export from the original file. All changes you make in LR are non destructive, your original is always there to revert to. All my month folders are included in the year 2018, which has 12 month folders. I only make an exception for things I need a lot as you can see the normal month folders.


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## Biff (Oct 23, 2018)

Many thanks, also for the screenshots!



> Using img2012 is dangerous because at a certain point your camera will reset and you will have the same filename. What you need is to use the import function, and on import I name my files daymonthyearsubject-sequence.extension


So renaming the files when importing them, yes, that is a good point. Or may be it would be enough to just change one sign or more if that certain point comes to avoid identical file names?



> You don't need to save exports because you can always repeat the export from the original file.


Yes, a very good thought doing it that way. Would save much space on the drives and have other advantages. But I am nor sure, would be afraid if, may be after 10, 20 years or so, or even ealier, Lightroom completely might have changed and the settings or a part of them might not be compatible / working anymore then or Lightroom even does not exist anymore or whatever. Well, one could keep the or some of the old Lightroom versions (if or not they would run on the recent operating systems in the future). But there might be other reasons I do not have any idea of why the export would not work (properly) anymore. And one would have to do all of the edits / changes (moves, copies) only in Lightroom. And actually once an image is edited completely I never would want to edit it again and I would like to watch / show it (in any program) at any time without having to create it first, but that thoughts might change as well of course. These could be some drawbacks, I really do not know.

Would it make sense to organize / sort the images, respectively only the ones to be published, by category in different folders with the category names?


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## clee01l (Oct 23, 2018)

I would like to weigh in on this issue. 
Here is what I do and it has worked well through 5 or more camera and phones. 

I import into date named folders, One of the LR default folder schemes. 
I never rename originals I can always find and reimport and original that came off the camera card if I need to. 
Every 10,000 images, my camera reuses the sequence number.  This is not an issue because the imported image(s) is always in a different date named folder Should I need to search and keywords or other metadata are unknown,  I might wind up with a search result that has several images that have the same 4 char sequence number.  The image content is unique enough that I have no problem identifying the correct image. 
I export using the HardDrive Publish Service.  This exports to a folder that is known to LR and if I need the derivative, LR can open that Publish Service destination folder.  Lightroom creates a publish event in the image history.  So I can tell exactly which developed version of the original has been published. 
I only rename derivatives using a naming template when exported via the Publish Service.   This naming template always includes the original  sequence number so that I can at a glance I can get an idea of the original image file that I started with.  My naming template might include other metadata like date, location and always references the source application(LR) that created the derivative
Other important data management considerations.:

I organize using collections and keywords.  Folders are not an organizational tool.
I only store derivatives local long enough to make full use of them and delete from the destination folder when my purpose has been fulfilled.   I can always reexport (republish) if I need another copy of the derivative. 
With Smart Collections I can isolate any image in my inventory based upon keywords and metadata.   I never need to visually do a folder scan to find an image.  This is why LR was designed to work the way it does.


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## Biff (Oct 23, 2018)

Thank you very much!



> I export using the HardDrive Publish Service. This exports to a folder that is known to LR and if I need the derivative, LR can open that Publish Service destination folder. Lightroom creates a publish event in the image history. So I can tell exactly which developed version of the original has been published.


And vice versa? If one wants to know which original belongs to a derivative can Lightroom find the original? E.g. one wants to find the original of the derivative 1.jpg or 2.jpg, could Lightroom find it?
And can Lightroom export to more than one folders instead of only exporting in one using special criteria, e.g. refering to EXIP data, the location, creating for each location a folder?



> I organize using collections and keywords. Folders are not an organizational tool.


And after organizing this way Lightroom could export the images in different folders according to the keywords, EXIF?


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## clee01l (Oct 24, 2018)

Biff said:


> Thank you very much!
> 
> 
> And vice versa? If one wants to know which original belongs to a derivative can Lightroom find the original? E.g. one wants to find the original of the derivative 1.jpg or 2.jpg, could Lightroom find it?


If the image is in the original published destination folder, the Finding that Publishes collection in LR is relatively easy. If all you have is the derivative image file, then the file name that contains the original image 4 char sequence should permit you to search the LR catalog and find all of the images that have those same 4 char sequence numbers.  Your file will be one (maybe the only one) of the images returned from the Lightroom Filter bar query. 





> And can Lightroom export to more than one folders instead of only exporting in one using special criteria, e.g. refering to EXIP data, the location, creating for each location a folder?


Each Hard drive publish service will have a unique set of criteria Collections  within the Publish Service  refer to different destination folders.   If you need to change the criteria (e.g. publish TIFFs instead of JPEGs or resize on output or other special criteria) you need to create a new HardDrive Publish Service for each different special criteria.


> And after organizing this way Lightroom could export the images in different folders according to the keywords, EXIF?


For this I use a Plugin by Jeffrey Freidl Jeffrey's "Collection Publisher" Lightroom Plugin. Which offers conditional tokens to be inserted into the selection criteria,  When a keyword is one of the conditional tokens, then the destination folder is determined precisely.


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## Biff (Oct 24, 2018)

> If all you have is the derivative image file, then the file name that contains the original image 4 char sequence should permit you to search the LR catalog and find all of the images that have those same 4 char sequence numbers.


I am not sure, for example 1.jpg is in Lightroom connected to the file having the 4 char sequenze numbers? Or which file?

Many thanks for the link to that plug in, I will try it out.

Looks very complex and complicated to properly publish (to the hard drive) one's images.


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## clee01l (Oct 24, 2018)

Biff said:


> I am not sure, for example 1.jpg is in Lightroom connected to the file having the 4 char sequenze numbers? Or which file?


Both the files that have been exported and the original keep the same 4 char sequence number   If you rename files on import and don't keep this part of the original file name or rename files on export and don't include the original 4 char sequence number, then you have nothing but metadata like Capture Date to search on.


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## Biff (Oct 24, 2018)

Both files? Which one is the second? 1.jpg is exported from its original file, e.g. img_20233.cr2, 1.jpg is a derivate of img_20233.tif, so actually I would think there is no other file belonging to those. Very confusing for me, sorry. So 1.jpg does not have such 4 char sequence, obviously, so the original image, img_20233.tif, could not be found, is that right?

Sorry again for my bad understanding.


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## DGStinner (Oct 24, 2018)

I think Cletus is saying you would export img_20233.cr2 as img_20233.jpg NOT 1.jpg.  If you want to export a full res and reduced res version, you would export img_20233.jpg and img_20233_1500px.jpg.


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## Biff (Oct 24, 2018)

Well, OK. Actually I would like to export one file at the moment.

Why export two different images, one for a smaller view and one for a bigger one? Could one use the bigger one for both of the views?


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## DGStinner (Oct 24, 2018)

You may export two different images because you want to print the image but also email to someone, or put on a website/facebook.
Yes, you could use the full size image for everything.


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## Biff (Oct 24, 2018)

Alright, I want to upload it to my web site.


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## Wernfried (Oct 25, 2018)

In your first post you mention that you upload your pictures to your website with the Koken plug in.  Why would you then consider the Jeffrey's "Collection Publisher"  Plugin?


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## Biff (Oct 25, 2018)

I want to try out both possibilities (and may be one or two more), That publisher plugin looks very well. May be it will work better for me. I do not know if I will keep on using Koken (but it looks quite well as well in combination with Lightroom) I am just trying it at the moment. At the moment I am not quite sure what is the best way for me.


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