# LR 5.6....images imported upside down, out of order.



## EyeDontKnow (Sep 18, 2014)

LR 5.6 on a PC Win7 pro......Nikon 7100 camera
First try to preview/import NEF (raw) photos (via Nikon cable)....more often than not,.....many photos in the thumbnails (preview, before clicking "import" these selected photos tab) shows several of them as upside-down, and out of chronological order. 
Usually I'll "cancel" the import, close LR 5.6,  then try again.....and usually things are fixed, correctly.
I'm doing some interval shooting (time lapse)......and I wonder if this an issue that others are having.......and if there is a reason for this behavior. ??

If it matters at all, I'm importing to a Raid disk array, as well as to a backup disk drive.


=Randy=


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## Roelof Moorlag (Sep 18, 2014)

Sometimes the cabling is causing problems.
Did you try to import with a cardreader?


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## clee01l (Sep 18, 2014)

Upside Down: Usually means that the user did not set the orientation flag in the camera setup menu ( It is called AutoRotation on my Nikon setup menu).  Out Of Order is related to the Sort order selected on LR's tool bar.  If you choose Capture time The images will sort according to the timestamp the camera assigned in the EXIF.


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## EyeDontKnow (Sep 19, 2014)

clee01l said:


> Upside Down: Usually means that the user did not set the orientation flag in the camera setup menu ( It is called AutoRotation on my Nikon setup menu).  Out Of Order is related to the Sort order selected on LR's tool bar.  If you choose Capture time The images will sort according to the timestamp the camera assigned in the EXIF.


This may be true....but why does it correct itself after a second or third import try ? --- when I made no changes to LR settings, or Camera settings ? (nor did I photograph any photos with the camera upside down) This also happens on an import from my phone (samsung Note2) import attempt.

Side question......I recorded a time-lapse sequence (400+ pics total) that went past "midnight" (date change), therefore LR placed "before midnight" and "after midnight" in two separate import folders. How do I  keep the chronological order of the sequence intact and in order ?.....will simply moving one folder into the other (inside LR) result in a true chronological sequence ?


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## clee01l (Sep 19, 2014)

I can't explain the orientation flag.  LR always honors it or it's own setting if you rotate after you import into LR.
Sort order is irrelevant to LR this is controlled by the setting on the Toolbar.  There are several choices including User custom Sort. I think the Default is "Added Order"  The order that you want is Capture time. You could also use Filename if the file name follows a regular Alphanumeric progression.  There is no physical order to files on a HDD. In fact the files themselves are seldom contiguous.  Order is determined by the application that is using the file. If it is Windows Explorer, it defaults to file name order. The sort order in LR as I have already discussed defaults to "Added order" and is controlled by the user in the Toolbar.

When you imported your images, you chose a destination folder based upon settings in the Import dialog Destination panel.  The Default is one of several date named folder schemes. For most people, this is a good choice since you don't want to limit your organization to that constrained by the rules of the filesystem.  

Now that you have imported the images you can ignore the folder structure in the folder panel.  The Folder panel is a subset of the "reality" imposed by the file system.  It shows you the filesystem path recorded by LR for all of the files that have been cataloged. It does not show you all of the files in a folder, only those that are in the LR catalog. It does not show you all of the folders, only those folders that have been referenced by the LR catalog. 

If you notice in the Catalog panel, there is a _temporary_ collection called "Previous Import".  It contains all of your last imported images.  You can use that temporary collection until you import again.  The best use of this temporary collection is to create a permanent collection in the Collection panel using the contents of this temporary collection. 
Now that you understand the importance of working using collections and keywords.  let me tell you what the Folder panel really is.  It consists of collections of images grouped by folder path.  It has no direct relationship with the filesystem folders except by reference to the path where the master image files are stored in the filesystem.


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## EyeDontKnow (Sep 20, 2014)

Thank you for the great explanation......I'll look into these details.


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## Aeropix (Jan 17, 2015)

Hello EYEDONTKNOW et al,

I am having the same problem and it is driving me crazy.  First a bit about the system. MAC OS X 10.10.1, Lightroom 5.7 and Drobo storage drive.  Ive been shooting for over 25 years, semi professionally, and using Canon 5D Mark III and Gopro Hero 4 Black.  I also have been using LR for 2 years and only started having this issue 6 months or so ago.

My photos AND videos are CONSTANTLY being imported upside down and out of order as well, and just like EYEDONTKNOW said, you have to shut down and reset the LR5 software several times to get a proper import.

1. It is NOT the cable, I am using the SD card reader on the iMac and a DYNEX CF card reader.  Also the problem occurs if using cable - to - Camera as well.
2. It is not the Flag orientation.  This is a problem when I try to import time lapse sequences (ahhh so frustrating when half of 3,500 photos are upsidedown)
3. It is not a function of the camera, since LR5 has this bad problem with CANON, GOPRO, and also a friend's NIKON.
4. It doesn't matter whether you choose filename, or time as the sorting order.  LR5 still imports WAAY out of order.

I will post screenshots when I can, but I did just join the forum now because this problem has been bothering me for 6 months and nobody else seems to notice so far.  Thanks to EYEDONTKNOW, I feel a little less crazy.  Now how to fix it?

All the best,

Derek


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## Aeropix (Jan 17, 2015)

OK. My first screenshot shows the images which I want to import IN THE CORRECT ORDER that they should be imported.  The SECOND image shows the RANDOM order that LR5 actually imports the images. And what's more, it doesn't matter what settings I choose in LR5 the only solution so far has been to shutdown/restart/retry with the same settings, up to 5 times, until LR5 FINALLY gets it right.

You may not be an airplane-nut, so wouldn't notice the airliner photos out of sequence after the import, but look at the sequence of photos of the sports-car, for example.  That sequence was OBVIOUSLY a single sequence of photos that was separated out into a random order by LR5 when I tried to import it.

PLEASE anybody who has this problem and knows how to fix it, please help!

All the best,

Derek


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## Jim Wilde (Jan 17, 2015)

Hi, welcome to the forum.

What happens when you change the sort order in the Library after import to, say, Capture Time.....does that get them all back in order?

And have you tried a preferences file reset to try to fix this issue?


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## Aeropix (Jan 17, 2015)

Hi Jim,

Thank you for the welcome message and advice.

I have tried the preferences file reset and redone the import from the above post again with no anomalies, so thanks for the advice.  With fingers crossed that may have solved my issue.  I also dumped the old LR4 .plist file while I was in there cleaning house.

FYI if I did change the sort order in LIBRARY it would set the correct sequence of photos.  However, my issue is that the sequence of files on the external drive folder would be totally out of order.  My main purpose for using lightroom is as a photo renaming tool and so having the sequence numbers messed up in the external drive was compromising my workflow, which involves frequently finding original photos from outside of lightroom.  It was also playing havoc with the time lapse photo files, so I really appreciate the help to fix the root problem!

I will report back whether this fixed the issue permanently within the next week.

Thanks a lot!

Derek


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## clee01l (Jan 17, 2015)

There is no inherent sort order in the File System. In fact, the filesystem does not even place the data blocks of a file in a contiguous order on the disk drive.  Finder sorted *its* result based upon the "Arrangement" setting in Finder.  LR sorts the grid view based upon the setting selected or defaulted on the tool bar.  File renaming in LR will be based upon the order selected on the tool bar in the grid view.


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## Aeropix (Jan 18, 2015)

*It's not the operating system...*



clee01l said:


> There is no inherent sort order in the File System. In fact, the filesystem does not even place the data blocks of a file in a contiguous order on the disk drive.  Finder sorted *its* result based upon the "Arrangement" setting in Finder.  LR sorts the grid view based upon the setting selected or defaulted on the tool bar.  File renaming in LR will be based upon the order selected on the tool bar in the grid view.



Hello, and thanks for your reply.  Having a lifetime of computer experience since my first TRS-80 and Apple-II about 30 years ago, I am keenly aware of the workings of computer file systems, and that is not the issue here.

The issue is that Lightroom is picking photos at random from my memory card and assigning the sequential filenames in the wrong order.

For example lets say I shot 5 photos with my motor drive in one quick burst.  Lets call them "Photo 1", "Photo 2", "Photo 3", "Photo 4" and "Photo 5".  Now, let's say I want to rename all these photos to my shoot name, for example "Shootname". Lightroom should then take "Photo 1", i.e. the first photo in the sequence, and rename it "Shootname 1" and write it to the hard drive.  Likewise, "Photo2" becomes "Shootname 2", Photo 3 becomes "Shootname 3", "Photo 4" becomes "Shootname 4" and finally "Photo 5" being the last one in the sequence from the camera becomes "Shootname 5".

Get it? The CORRECt and EXPECTED behavior from Lightroom should be as follows:

Photo 1 --> Shootname 1
Photo 2 --> Shootname 2
Photo 3 --> Shootname 3
Photo 4 --> Shootname 4
Photo 5 --> Shootname 5

BUT! The problem is that  LR5 is PICKING RANDOM PHOTOS in a RANDOM ORDER and giving them the WRONG NAMES.  So the photo NAMES are in NUMERICAL order on the external drive, BUT THE WRONG PHOTOS have those names, so the PHOTOS themselves are all mixed up, as I tried to show in the pictures above.

FOR EXAMPLE: Lightroom has been doing this strange thing:

Photo 4 --> Shootname 1
Photo 1 --> Shootname 2
Photo 5 --> Shootname 3
Photo 3 --> Shootname 4
Photo 2 --> Shootname 5

Can you see, that if Lightroom renames the photos in this random way, that even though the Filenames are indeed sequential, the ACTUAL PHOTOS THEMSELVES will be in a random order, having been INCORRECTLY RENAMED by Lightroom for some as yet unknown reason? This is the issue that I am trying to solve.

It doesn't matter that I've selected "Capture Time" as the required import order, and that the camera's clock was set correctly.  I've also tried to set the import preference to "File Name" because my camera names all the files sequentially, and so that should cause it to import in the correct order, but that doesn't help either. LR5 still picks random photos from the card, instead of importing them in order.  That's a big problem, and an unacceptable behavior from the software.

That is what me and EyeDontKnow are trying to get across.  It's really not because we don't understand how computers work, but more that LR5 is exhibiting this unexpected random photo picking anomaly that is selecting random photos for renaming rather than renaming photos in the order we told it to do (in my case its by Capture time, and yes, I have the camera's clock set properly and there is never a "midnight" handover issue in any of these instances.

And once we solve this file naming anomaly, then there's the issue of LR5importing many random photos upside-down!

Hopefully the .plist reset will help solve this issue, but if you have any more suggestions, I am always appreciative.

Regards,

Derek


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## clee01l (Jan 18, 2015)

You haven't made it clear where you are trying to rename.  On the import dialog, are you choosing a Sort order (like Capture time or File Name) before you import and trying to rename during import? Remember the image files on the camera card are not in a sorted order either. So the LR import dialog may pick them up as the card passes them off to the LR app. unless you sort them in the Import dialog before importing.

This has nothing to do with plists or anything related to LR except that LR is doing as instructed. You just need to find where the sorting instruction is missing, give it to LR before you attempt to rename. 

Try importing without renaming. Then sort the grid by a sortable characteristic and rename the sorted grid selection.  Does that work?

FWIW, I've been programming computers for 47 years.  I'm sure you've heard of GIGO.


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## Aeropix (Jan 18, 2015)

Hi Cletus,

Many thanks for the quick advice. If the problem persists I will keep your "import - then - rename" idea in mind.  In answer to your query I am trying to rename DURING the import process, i.e. a "one-step" workflow.  This procedure has worked with no errors in LR4 and also in LR5 when I was using OSX10.9.  The "rename during import" feature is my main reason for buying lightroom and that is why the randomization of my files (and upside-sown imports) is such a vexing issue for me. 

The "random order" anomaly only recently cropped up and I can't remember whether it was associated with the Yosemite upgrade or not but seems to be around that time.

However, that extra step should not be necessary. LR only recently started having this problem in my system, and was working properly before that, so my goal is to figure out what is happening to create the root problem and fix it so that I don't have to do the extra step which will slow down my workflow considerably. 

Unfortunately its not not a problem with the instructions that I am giving the software.  Indeed the software imports in the correct order after several attempts but just not on the first try. As you can see in my first screenshot above, the software recognizes my required import order and displays the photos in the correct (Capture time) sequence, but in spite of correct user input the software (for as yet unknown reasons) proceeds to import in a random fashion as described in my post above.

So I'm trying to find out why it is importing in a random fashion sometimes, but not always. That intermittent fault indicates a problem with the software rather than user selection so hopefully can find that cause soon!

I do understand the first impulse is to assume user error, especially for an uncommon problem such as mine which seems to be affecting very few users.  That was my first choice and I have spent the last few months eliminating those errors as a cause.  Indeed I never hold myself above that and take all your good advice with much appreciation. 

 All I ask of this forum thread is to assume that the user error has been eliminated as a possible cause so that we can proceed to try and determine why the software is behaving in this anomalous fashion.  The fact that EyeDontKnow was having the exact same problem as I is a small comfort that I alone am not having this issue.  So I do hope that perhaps a third user who encountered this problem himself may read this and offer his solution.  Meanwhile I will of course post my solution if I can find one on my end.

Cheers. Derek


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## clee01l (Jan 18, 2015)

Aeropix said:


> All I ask of this forum thread is to assume that the user error has been eliminated as a possible cause so that we can proceed to try and determine why the software is behaving in this anomalous fashion.


I can never assume that user error has been eliminated.  Especially when that user is me.  I've revisited your two screen shots. And I have some questions. The screen shot of the Import panel is sorted by (original) file name. and the grid view there appears in the same order as capture time./file name.  The second screen shot is of the Library grid view.  It has a sort order of Added Order and missing from the grid view is the Info Overlay showing the file names.  What happens when you sort the Library grid view by FileName?  Are the images in a correct chronological sequence?   Added order uses the LR database index field to sort.  When you import LR will import several images in several threads using multiple cores.  Those threads that started first won't necessarily finish first. When they do finish they will get added to the database in the order they finish.  So in that regard, "Added Order" does not necessarily correspond to Original "File name order", Renamed "file name order" or "Capture Time" order.  What I am trying to determine is whether your Renaming file name sequence corresponds to the original file name sequence order.  Do the renamed file names that correspond to "4X2C4209.CR2" and "4X2C4210.CR2" follow each other in sequence? i.e. "2015-01-08-AMS-020.CR2" & "2015-01-08-AMS-021.CR2" (these are the two bird photos) If they are in sequence, then the renaming template is honoring the Import panel sort order.  If the Import panel sort order is not being honored by the renaming template, then there is a bug in the LR import process. 
-


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## Aeropix (Jan 31, 2015)

*Just an update*



clee01l said:


> What I am trying to determine is whether your Renaming file name sequence corresponds to the original file name sequence order.  Do the renamed file names that correspond to "4X2C4209.CR2" and "4X2C4210.CR2" follow each other in sequence? i.e. "2015-01-08-AMS-020.CR2" & "2015-01-08-AMS-021.CR2" (these are the two bird photos)
> -



Sorry for the late reply after your latest help.  Have been out traveling in the last weeks.  First in answer to your question, the photos are NOT being imported in the requested order, so it becomes impossible for me to find the correct files directly on the hard drive.  The two bird photos were separated by about 25 other random photos and had file names "2015-01-08-AMS-015.CR2" and "2015-01-08-AMS-041.CR2" during one of the faulty imports.



clee01l said:


> If they are in sequence, then the renaming template is honoring the Import panel sort order. If the Import panel sort order is not being honored by the renaming template, then there is a bug in the LR import process.
> -



So as to the update, there definitely was a big bug in the LR import process on my computer.  Deleting all the old .plist files, as suggested earlier in the thread seems to have helped a little, but it has NOT fixed the problem. Now instead of shuffling all the photos on the card, it shuffles photos within smaller groups that were taken as a continuous burst on the camera.

During the last 5 imports, the problem has been much less dramatic, but still noticeable, and still randomly shuffles photos which are taken in rapid succession.  It doesn't shuffle the photos as wildly as it did before, but it is still shuffling them.  Drat.  Back to the drawing board.

I'm not sure why the problem is reduced to just shuffling of the smaller groups of photos but seems like the .plist reset had some benefit though it did not fix the problem.

So I am still having this renaming issue:

Photo 4 --> Shootname 1
Photo 1 --> Shootname 2
Photo 5 --> Shootname 3
Photo 3 --> Shootname 4
Photo 2 --> Shootname 5

Any other suggestions?

I will update the thread if I find out how to fix it, or I might just scrap lightroom altogether and find another program to import my photos with.  

Any suggestions for alternate software that can rename photos while I import them to an external drive?

EDITED TO ADD: I just did the last 2 imports over again, Using APPLE APERTURE, and all images were imported and renamed correctly, in the original order that the photos were shot, with absolute precision.  I have deleted lightroom from my system, and will re-install it from a new download, and hope that perhaps that will fix the issues.

Thanks,

Derek


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## Aeropix (Feb 14, 2015)

*Hopefully Final Update - Bad Card Reader*

Hello Guys,

After a trip to L.A. where I experimented on my friend's computer, and then returned home to do some more work on my computer, I finally found that I have been using a faulty card reader.  I don't know why it was causing the problem, but after tossing it out, and importing directly from the camera instead, it seems to have solved the import file-order issue.  Hopefully once and for all.

Still, I don't know why Aperture had no problem even when I used the card reader, while LR5 scrambled the photos.  I guess just chalk it up to different software using the data in a different way.

Lesson Learned:  Check your cables and card readers, there may be a short circuit in there.

Has anybody ever heard of a cable or card reader causing such problems? Anyway just wanted to post updates to let everybody who has helped me know what I found out.

Will update if the problem recurs.

Regards,

Derek


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