# Lightroom working gamut



## ilarionmoga (Aug 25, 2019)

Hello everyone,
It's first time I write here and as an avid user of Lightroom, I am very aware of it's strengths and weaknesses. I won't name the plethora of strengths, of which I am so grateful, I will only ask for some options I want in Lightroom, that I found mandatory for a good and professional editing. Apart from not being the very fast RAW processing software, there are some flows I can't go over, no matter what. Today I will start with the ones that annoys me the most. It might be surprising to most of you, but the ProPhoto profile, that Lightroom is working RAW files in, it's not the best profile to accurately preserve saturated colors. While most of the colors falls inside the sRGB or AdobeRGB profiles, and are displayed properly, the most saturated colors are blown outside these profiles and this results in oversaturated colors to display in sRGB. Ok, most of professional photographers would tel me, Why would I want to work in a profile as small as sRGB ar even AdobeRGB, when the ProPhoto is bigger than both and is better to work with because it preserves more colors for best CMYK gamuts?! Well, first of all, only a small fraction of my clients are using devices capable of showing lets say, AdobeRGB or P3 profiles. The ting is, the prints I am doing are well within the sRGB and I am very happy with this. Besides, I don't really like to have very saturated colors in my images. So, one option would be to desaturate colors in Lightroom, but this would result in undersaturated colors overall. Of course, I could use the 'vibrance' tool to regain saturation for pastel colors but this is not an option for me because it alters the colors too much in a way I find unpleasant. I ended up modifying the DNG profile to desaturate the most  satuarted colors in the spectrum. This is not the best option, but it lets me keep the skin tones in the correct gamut coordinates, without twisting them. 
  These being said, I found that this happens because of the fact that Lightroom works inside a much larger ProPhoto gamut that my display can show, and rising the contrast in images results in oversaturated primaries. The best solution to this problem would be to be able to choose the gamut in which Lightroom performs the editing. Best options would be to include sRGB, AdobeRGB and the new P3 that is around us from some time now. There is no logical reason to work in ProPhoto, at least not for me.

I will mention of another problem I find annoying in Lightroom/ACR. It performs all the algoritms, contrast, curves, saturation, etc. in perceptual not relative colorimetric. I understand the differences of them in theory and I find the use of a perceptual algorithm to be tied to the ProPhoto gamut Lightroom uses. In prophoto, almost every image results in oversatuated colors so using a perceptual algorithm, prevents colors to oversaturate to an extreme extent. This solution, again, does not favors color accuracy, but keeping the colors good when we eyeball them. Yes, it's a solution, but it is far from perfect. The new Adobe DNG profiles have some sort of relative colorimetric embeded in them, so colors are in fact very good. The problem is whn I want to use custom DNG profile that does not have embeded color rendition of any sort. They don't have any twisting algorithms embeded in them.

I put here examples for the problems I mentioned.


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## ilarionmoga (Aug 25, 2019)




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## Replytoken (Aug 25, 2019)

Welcome to the forum.  Most people prefer to work in large color spaces with raw files for a  number of reasons, including less "rounding" errors when doing any type of adjustments.  I am assuming that you are aware of the ability to soft proof images in sRGB when working in the Develop Module?  This should address a number of your issues and allow you make adjustments as necessary.  Have you tried using soft proofing?

--Ken


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## LouieSherwin (Aug 26, 2019)

Hi @ilarionmoga and welcome to the forums.  This is probably not the best place to get useful feed back on this level of color management. Most folks here are satisfied to just get their prints to look close to what they see on their monitor.

While I consider myself pretty knowledgable on basic color management the questions you raise are way over my head. There is a place where I think that you would get good feedback and lively discussion. This is the  Colour Management forum over at luminous-landscape.com. 

-louie


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## ilarionmoga (Aug 28, 2019)

Replytoken said:


> Welcome to the forum.  Most people prefer to work in large color spaces with raw files for a  number of reasons, including less "rounding" errors when doing any type of adjustments.  I am assuming that you are aware of the ability to soft proof images in sRGB when working in the Develop Module?  This should address a number of your issues and allow you make adjustments as necessary.  Have you tried using soft proofing?
> 
> --Ken


Thank you, Ken! Yes, it would be nice to have monitors able to show the entire ProPhoto RGB, unfortunately I only have a good, calibrated and profiled sRGB Eizo. Seeing things in sRGB only, I find rather useless to work in a larger color space because the colors that are within sRGB are saturated enough for my needs and those that get outside sRGB are clipped out in an unpleasant way, like an overexposed photo. This clipping happens when I rise the contrast, a normal behavior. The thing is that most base linear RAW file are well within sRGB and if we would have an option in Lightroom to work within sRGB, none of the colors would get outside the sRGB, and saturated colors wont have burn out surfaces. Soft proofing does not do any good, since my monitor already is capable to show sRGB gamut. If I would need to soft proof for a smaller CMYK profile, then would make sense.
Now, i understand that this is not the right place to revolve to someone from Adobe. Where should I address my concerns to arrive at Lightroom developers?


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## ilarionmoga (Aug 28, 2019)

LouieSherwin said:


> Hi @ilarionmoga and welcome to the forums.  This is probably not the best place to get useful feed back on this level of color management. Most folks here are satisfied to just get their prints to look close to what they see on their monitor.
> 
> While I consider myself pretty knowledgable on basic color management the questions you raise are way over my head. There is a place where I think that you would get good feedback and lively discussion. This is the  Colour Management forum over at luminous-landscape.com.
> 
> -louie


Thank you, Louie!
I will revolve to luminous landscape but I am pretty sure they wont solve my concerns since this is a coding issue within Lightroom software. If I'd be a software developer I might get into modifying some Lightroom algorithms, but I'm yet to eat codes  So the only viable option are Lightroom developers to make some options in this wonderful RAW developer. 
Best regards!
Ilarion


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## Bernard (Aug 28, 2019)

Hi @ilarionmoga,
If I understand you correctly, your problems come from the fact that Lightroom uses internally Prophoto, and that cannot be changed.
If you would like to use LR for cataloging and managing your images, but not for developing, you could send your  raw files directly  (without TIFF conversion)  to photoshop , using this plug-in :
http://www.beardsworth.co.uk/lightroom/open-directly/and in PS you can choose your working colorspace.
Bernard


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## clee01l (Aug 28, 2019)

ilarionmoga said:


> Seeing things in sRGB only, I find rather useless to work in a larger color space


The larger ProPhotoRGB colorspace is the *working color space*.   When LR makes adjustments to pixels it needs a computational working color space because some computed values will fall outside of the visible envelope.   When you export or display, LR uses the suitable color space that you choose for your media, Lightroom will take all pixel values that fall outside of the selected colorspace envelop and remap them to fall inside the selected colorspace envelope


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## ilarionmoga (Aug 28, 2019)

Bernard said:


> Hi @ilarionmoga,
> If I understand you correctly, your problems come from the fact that Lightroom uses internally Prophoto, and that cannot be changed.
> If you would like to use LR for cataloging and managing your images, but not for developing, you could send your  raw files directly  (without TIFF conversion)  to photoshop , using this plug-in :
> http://www.beardsworth.co.uk/lightroom/open-directly/and in PS you can choose your working colorspace.
> Bernard



Hi Bernard,
Yes, you understand perfectly. What I hoped for by writing on this forum, is a way to make myself heard by someone from Adobe. The problems I am rising can only be solved by a future Lightroom update. I have waited for Lightroom to evolve also in this particular branch, color management, but unfortunately did not, and remained at a very basic level, good enough for most of the users. Yes, I could get around these issues albeit, not in the best fashion. I had to modify Adobe standard profile in order to tame the saturation so I don't have to lower the color saturation inside Lightroom, practice that would lower the saturation for all the tone of that color. So, by editing a the profile in Adobe profile editor, I lowered the saturation of primaries taht are showed in ProPhoto RGB, but made an anchor point on skin tones , yellows and some more pastel tones and the result are pretty satisfying. Satisfying but not accurate, even if my work doesn't involve accuracy, I do want an accurate starting point. Yes, I get it, some printing gamuts go well beyond sRGB standard, but even so, i do not want ovely saturated colors in my prints either. I am more toward pastel, filmlike tones.


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## ilarionmoga (Aug 28, 2019)

clee01l said:


> The larger ProPhotoRGB colorspace is the *working color space*.   When LR makes adjustments to pixels it needs a computational working color space because some computed values will fall outside of the visible envelope.   When you export or display, LR uses the suitable color space that you choose for your media, Lightroom will take all pixel values that fall outside of the selected colorspace envelop and remap them to fall inside the selected colorspace envelope


Yes Clee, I do export in sRGB, but this changes nothing because the work  in Lightroom is done inside ProPhoto RGB and this result in overly saturated primaries that are well outside sRGB and they are showed up like patches of full bodied primaries rather than color tones. I will show you an example.
Thank for the reply!


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## ilarionmoga (Aug 28, 2019)

In the left image I have used my own modified Adobe standard profile while on the right one the default Adobe standard profile.
The camera is a Canon 5D mark II.
Even so unsaturated, there are patches where color falls outside the sRGB and is clipped out. It wouldn't be so hard for Lightroom engineers to make an option in Lightroom to work inside sRGB


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## ilarionmoga (Aug 28, 2019)

ilarionmoga said:


> Hi Bernard,
> Yes, you understand perfectly. What I hoped for by writing on this forum, is a way to make myself heard by someone from Adobe. The problems I am rising can only be solved by a future Lightroom update. I have waited for Lightroom to evolve also in this particular branch, color management, but unfortunately did not, and remained at a very basic level, good enough for most of the users. Yes, I could get around these issues albeit, not in the best fashion. I had to modify Adobe standard profile in order to tame the saturation so I don't have to lower the color saturation inside Lightroom, practice that would lower the saturation for all the tone of that color. So, by editing a the profile in Adobe profile editor, I lowered the saturation of primaries taht are showed in ProPhoto RGB, but made an anchor point on skin tones , yellows and some more pastel tones and the result are pretty satisfying. Satisfying but not accurate, even if my work doesn't involve accuracy, I do want an accurate starting point. Yes, I get it, some printing gamuts go well beyond sRGB standard, but even so, i do not want ovely saturated colors in my prints either. I am more toward pastel, filmlike tones.


I like how I can handle RAW files in Lightroom better than any other raw developer I've tried, including CaptureOne. So there are no alternatives for me. Well, all the things I am asking are already included in RAW Therapee, but that particular software is a no no for me because their highlight and shadow recovery algorithms are just awful, not to mention the HSL algorithms.


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## ilarionmoga (Aug 28, 2019)

An example of clipped out reds in Lightroom


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## ilarionmoga (Aug 28, 2019)

If i could only speak to Adobe engineers...


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## Hal P Anderson (Aug 28, 2019)

ilarionmoga said:


> If i could only speak to Adobe engineers...



See the "Bug Report/Feature Request" link at the top of this page. Adobe engineers frequent the forum that is referenced there.


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## ilarionmoga (Aug 28, 2019)

Yes, I can edit the contrast in Photoshop where I can work in sRGB profile, but this is no option for wedding photography where I have to edit hundreds of images with custom exposure and so on. Lightroom is best but cannot de customized the way I would like.


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## ilarionmoga (Aug 28, 2019)

Hal P Anderson said:


> See the "Bug Report/Feature Request" link at the top of this page. Adobe engineers frequent the forum that is referenced there.


Thank you, Anderson! I will try to speak there. I would have hoped that I could find more color fanatics as I am, so we can make our voices heard more easily. 
The main problem is that clients sees images on internet, displayed in sRGB profile. Most of them don't even have proper sRGB displays, some have P3 displays that show the colors in improper way... it is what it is, but the standard still is the mighty sRGB and is such a no brainer not to have the option to edit the RAW files in sRGB.


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## ilarionmoga (Aug 28, 2019)

Same but more detailed example.


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## Bernard (Aug 28, 2019)

ilarionmoga said:


> I like how I can handle RAW files in Lightroom better than any other raw developer I've tried,


Ok, but you know that going to PS, as I suggested above, you can use ACR (Camera raw). ACR and LR use exactly the same algorithms, and a very similar user interface.
I don't think Adobe will ever change LR color management because
1) it is well designed and good enough for most people
2) for the others, there is PS
Bernard


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## ilarionmoga (Aug 28, 2019)

Bernard said:


> Ok, but you know that going to PS, as I suggested above, you can use ACR (Camera raw). ACR and LR use exactly the same algorithms, and a very similar user interface.
> I don't think Adobe will ever change LR color management because
> 1) it is well designed and good enough for most people
> 2) for the others, there is PS
> Bernard


Yes, I know, I use ACR mostly to fine tune RGB tone curves to use them in Lightroom since Lightroom have terible Curve tool precision. Everything else is the same as Lightroom.
I will try to make my concerns visible to Lightroom developers.
Just look at how wide the ProPhoto RGB is! If happens a photowhere I have a woman with bright red lipstick, her red lips will fall outside sRGB and no one will be able any detail in that red on any device. It makes no sense at all. We should be able to chose the designated color space in which Lightroom is baking the RAWs. Right now, Lightroom/ACR are burning the colors into the oblivious prophoto. At least they should have chosen AdobeRGB...


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## Replytoken (Aug 29, 2019)

ilarionmoga said:


> Yes Clee, I do export in sRGB, but this changes nothing because the work  in Lightroom is done inside ProPhoto RGB and this result in overly saturated primaries that are well outside sRGB and they are showed up like patches of full bodied primaries rather than color tones. I will show you an example.
> Thank for the reply!


I guess what I am not understanding is why you are not using soft proofing before you export to see what is out of gamut for sRGB?  You can then bring down those areas before exporting and then have the entire image within the sRGB gamut.  I know this is not a working solution for bulk processing, but it is possible on an image by image basis.  I have done this with high saturation images which fall outside of sRGB when in the Develop module.  I know you would prefer an sRGB color space in LR, but this is a workable solution for single images.  Am I not correctly understanding the issue? 

--Ken


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## Johan Elzenga (Aug 29, 2019)

ilarionmoga said:


> If happens a photo where I have a woman with bright red lipstick, her red lips will fall outside sRGB and no one will be able any detail in that red on any device.


That depends on the rendering intent used when that photo is converted to sRGB on the device. If Perceptual is used, then the lips should retain their detail.


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## ilarionmoga (Aug 29, 2019)

Johan Elzenga said:


> That depends on the rendering intent used when that photo is converted to sRGB on the device. If Perceptual is used, then the lips should retain their detail.


I export from Lightroom directly in sRGB and the reds are already clipped out in Lightroom interface. I want to mention that I am aware of color management and everything is fine. Just the Lightroom use of prophoto to edit images is not.


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## ilarionmoga (Aug 29, 2019)

Replytoken said:


> I guess what I am not understanding is why you are not using soft proofing before you export to see what is out of gamut for sRGB?  You can then bring down those areas before exporting and then have the entire image within the sRGB gamut.  I know this is not a working solution for bulk processing, but it is possible on an image by image basis.  I have done this with high saturation images which fall outside of sRGB when in the Develop module.  I know you would prefer an sRGB color space in LR, but this is a workable solution for single images.  Am I not correctly understanding the issue?
> 
> --Ken


Soft proofing is what it sound it is, it just emulate a color space over the image to be able to see it in that color space, how will look for example on print. It does nothing on the actual image.
Lightroom manages raw files inside the ProPhoto, and it's a bad idea to do so. We do not have displays capable to show the entire prophoto rgb. We are getting close to Rec. 2020, which is still smaller than prophoto. So Lightroom to be able to show correct colors, everything that goes outside the monitor profile, maps inside this profile, aka burns them. This behavior is due to the fact that when we rise the contrast of an image, we rise the saturation of colors too, which is perfectly normal. If we could choose to work in AdobeRGB or sRGB, none of colors would go outside the intended gamut, because this is how profiles work in the first place. These profiles are just conventions so we have language of color understanding so our monitors can show them in the correct coordinates on the visual spectrum. We can only see a part of the spectrum on our monitors, due to limits in technology, but we see actually a lot of it. P3 is a great color space, being able to show more saturated reds than AdobeRGB, even if the greens are not so saturated. Honestly, I don't need the very saturated greens. P3 color space is a color space dictated by the light source and color filters of modern cinema projectors and white LED monitors. Why to not be able to show movies in a larger color space if the technology permits?! But ProPhoto, is way too large to work within. ProPhoto and the newer ACES P0 and P1 profiles were meant for the analog cinema and photo industry. When you have to invert negatives, if the negative image doesn't have a large enough color space, colors will be clipped out after inverting them. There is no other practical use for prophoto.


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## Johan Elzenga (Aug 29, 2019)

There is nothing wrong with using the widest possible color space while editing. You can ask Adobe to give you the choice to choose a different color space, but I am 99.99% sure they will not honor that request, so you either have to accept the realities in Lightroom or use other software. Conversion with the right rendering intent should solve out of gamut problems. If there is clipping on another device after conversion to sRGB, then the problem might be that this device does not support the full sRGB color space, especially in those red areas.


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## ilarionmoga (Aug 25, 2019)

Hello everyone,
It's first time I write here and as an avid user of Lightroom, I am very aware of it's strengths and weaknesses. I won't name the plethora of strengths, of which I am so grateful, I will only ask for some options I want in Lightroom, that I found mandatory for a good and professional editing. Apart from not being the very fast RAW processing software, there are some flows I can't go over, no matter what. Today I will start with the ones that annoys me the most. It might be surprising to most of you, but the ProPhoto profile, that Lightroom is working RAW files in, it's not the best profile to accurately preserve saturated colors. While most of the colors falls inside the sRGB or AdobeRGB profiles, and are displayed properly, the most saturated colors are blown outside these profiles and this results in oversaturated colors to display in sRGB. Ok, most of professional photographers would tel me, Why would I want to work in a profile as small as sRGB ar even AdobeRGB, when the ProPhoto is bigger than both and is better to work with because it preserves more colors for best CMYK gamuts?! Well, first of all, only a small fraction of my clients are using devices capable of showing lets say, AdobeRGB or P3 profiles. The ting is, the prints I am doing are well within the sRGB and I am very happy with this. Besides, I don't really like to have very saturated colors in my images. So, one option would be to desaturate colors in Lightroom, but this would result in undersaturated colors overall. Of course, I could use the 'vibrance' tool to regain saturation for pastel colors but this is not an option for me because it alters the colors too much in a way I find unpleasant. I ended up modifying the DNG profile to desaturate the most  satuarted colors in the spectrum. This is not the best option, but it lets me keep the skin tones in the correct gamut coordinates, without twisting them. 
  These being said, I found that this happens because of the fact that Lightroom works inside a much larger ProPhoto gamut that my display can show, and rising the contrast in images results in oversaturated primaries. The best solution to this problem would be to be able to choose the gamut in which Lightroom performs the editing. Best options would be to include sRGB, AdobeRGB and the new P3 that is around us from some time now. There is no logical reason to work in ProPhoto, at least not for me.

I will mention of another problem I find annoying in Lightroom/ACR. It performs all the algoritms, contrast, curves, saturation, etc. in perceptual not relative colorimetric. I understand the differences of them in theory and I find the use of a perceptual algorithm to be tied to the ProPhoto gamut Lightroom uses. In prophoto, almost every image results in oversatuated colors so using a perceptual algorithm, prevents colors to oversaturate to an extreme extent. This solution, again, does not favors color accuracy, but keeping the colors good when we eyeball them. Yes, it's a solution, but it is far from perfect. The new Adobe DNG profiles have some sort of relative colorimetric embeded in them, so colors are in fact very good. The problem is whn I want to use custom DNG profile that does not have embeded color rendition of any sort. They don't have any twisting algorithms embeded in them.

I put here examples for the problems I mentioned.


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## Bernard (Aug 29, 2019)

ilarionmoga said:


> I export from Lightroom directly in sRGB and the reds are already clipped out in Lightroom interface. I want to mention that I am aware of color management and everything is fine. Just the Lightroom use of prophoto to edit images is not.


Instead of exporting from LR (in sRGB),  you could use the print module, print to file, and then you can choose sRGB and the rendering intent, perceptual for example.


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## ilarionmoga (Aug 29, 2019)

Johan Elzenga said:


> There is nothing wrong with using the widest possible color space while editing. You can ask Adobe to give you the choice to choose a different color space, but I am 99.99% sure they will not honor that request, so you either have to accept the realities in Lightroom or use other software. Conversion with the right rendering intent should solve out of gamut problems. If there is clipping on another device after conversion to sRGB, then the problem might be that this device does not support the full sRGB color space, especially in those red areas.


Only if I'd have the option to choose the rendering intent in Lightroom...


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## ilarionmoga (Aug 29, 2019)

Bernard said:


> Instead of exporting from LR (in sRGB),  you could use the print module, print to file, and then you can choose sRGB and the rendering intent, perceptual for example.


This does nothing to the image, is only intended to alter the way the printer sees the colors. 
I am only speaking for internet use images, not for printing.


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## ilarionmoga (Aug 29, 2019)

The behavior of colors in color spaces is not easy to understand. It took me years to do so, so I don't expect that all of you will. My English does not have a very "wide gamut" and i may not make myself well understood.  Though, Clee understood perfectly:



clee01l said:


> The larger ProPhotoRGB colorspace is the *working color space*.   When LR makes adjustments to pixels it needs a computational working color space because some computed values will fall outside of the visible envelope.   When you export or display, LR uses the suitable color space that you choose for your media, Lightroom will take all pixel values that fall outside of the selected colorspace envelop and remap them to fall inside the selected colorspace envelope


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## Bernard (Aug 29, 2019)

ilarionmoga said:


> This does nothing to the image, is only intended to alter the way the printer sees the colors.
> I am only speaking for internet use images, not for printing.


You should read more carefully what I wrote : print to file gives you a jpg image, with the rendering intent you want


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## ilarionmoga (Aug 29, 2019)

Bernard said:


> You should read more carefully what I wrote : print to file gives you a jpg image, with the rendering intent you want


I tried now, but colors are the same bc it is the way Lightroom maps the colors before exporting or print to file action


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## Johan Elzenga (Aug 29, 2019)

ilarionmoga said:


> Only if I'd have the option to choose the rendering intent in Lightroom...


If there is a problem with that, then use a two-step approach. Export your image as 16 bits ProPhotoRGB. Then you can use other software to convert it further.


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## clee01l (Aug 29, 2019)

ilarionmoga said:


> Lightroom manages raw files inside the ProPhoto, and it's a bad idea to do so. We do not have displays capable to show the entire prophoto rgb.


I think you are a minority opinion of one to claim this is a bad idea.  There was a time when. we did not have P3 displays, or any display that was capable of displaying more that a subset of sRGB.   What happens when displays are available that do have ProPhotoRGB capability?  Just because you can not "see" the color on your display does not mean that the color is invalid.   I don't think you really understand the difference between a working colorspace and a media colorspace.


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## ilarionmoga (Aug 29, 2019)

Johan Elzenga said:


> If there is a problem with that, then use a two-step approach. Export your image as 16 bits ProPhotoRGB. Then you can use other software to convert it further.


I will work out around the problems I encounter because I edit thousands of raws and I don't like other software. When I need precision, I will just add contrast to tiffs exported from Lighroom into PS.


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## ilarionmoga (Aug 29, 2019)

clee01l said:


> I think you are a minority opinion of one to claim this is a bad idea.  There was a time when. we did not have P3 displays, or any display that was capable of displaying more that a subset of sRGB.   What happens when displays are available that do have ProPhotoRGB capability?  Just because you can not "see" the color on your display does not mean that the color is invalid.   I don't think you really understand the difference between a working colorspace and a media colorspace.


I do understand the difference.  I'd be happier to have the option to choose the working color space in LR as I can choose it in Raw Therapee. I want to work in the color space I am exporting the images. If I export in AdobeRGB, work in AdobeRGB. Is that hard for Adobe to implement this? An open source program like RawTherapee can do it...


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## Bernard (Aug 29, 2019)

ilarionmoga said:


> I tried now, but colors are the same bc it is the way Lightroom maps the colors before exporting or print to file action


You tried to print to a file with both rendering intents, and they are the same ??  Huuummmm.......
Lightroom  ( PS as well) is using the Adobe color engine for color conversion between color spaces, and this engine is well known to give excellent results.
I don't think anybody can do a better job.
If you don't like it, why don't you use raw therapee ???
Bernard


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## LouieSherwin (Aug 29, 2019)

ilarionmoga said:


> It might be surprising to most of you, but the ProPhoto profile, that Lightroom is working RAW files in, it's not the best profile to accurately preserve saturated colors. While most of the colors falls inside the sRGB or AdobeRGB profiles, and are displayed properly, the most saturated colors are blown outside these profiles and this results in oversaturated colors to display in sRGB.



I originally directed you to Luminous Landscape because you mentioned that you had made changes to the DNG profile to help. That is pretty technical and certainly beyond the scope of these forums.  

In reading the follow up discussion I think that you do not really understand how the Color Management Software (CMS) works overall and specifically to how it deals with out of gamut colors.  Using the  ProPhoto RGB working space for editing is absolutely the best way to preserve all of your color information while editing. 

The idea of using sRGB as the working space is a common misperception (myth) and is spread widely about the web by many well intentioned "experts".  You can watch a really good tutorial Video tutorial: sRGB urban legends Part 1 by Andrew Rodney that explains exactly why it is always better to work in the largest possible working space for as long as you can.  There are a whole bunch of related tutorials on his website digitaldog.net. 

Looking at the images that you provided  it seems that you do have some problems with your color management. But  this is likely caused by something else in your workflow, CMS setup  and/or hardware and not by fact that ACR and Lighroom use ProPhoto RGB as their working space.  By using a sRGB working space or converting images to sRGB is simply masking the root problem.  

-louie


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## ilarionmoga (Aug 29, 2019)

At this point I think It is better to address this problems somewhere else. I do know what I am talking about and I tried many raw converters and the problem resides in using the prophoto RGB as color space environment in Lightroom.
No, large color profiles are not for editing and color grading, if you read carefully on ACES P0 color profile manual, which is the largest useful color space, they specifically say that this profile is just for managing the content, so doesn't loose color information by handling it, but it IS NOT for color grading, and by not doing so, colors will fall outside the final color space and they will look clipped out. No, proPhoto is not the best color space to edit images in. The best color space for this job is the final color space. For example, for printing work I would edit raws in the printer profile and so I will not have burned colors.
It seems that no one understands the way Lightroom handles the Raws. It is not a question of CMS but one of programing. It is hard writen in Lightroom codes to edit in prophoto and map colors in the AdobeRGB color space. Then no matter what color space I export to, will always have burned colors because they fall outside AdobeRGB. It is immature from Adobe after all these years not to give a solution to this problem.


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## ilarionmoga (Aug 29, 2019)

Proof of the problem


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## Hal P Anderson (Aug 29, 2019)

ilarionmoga said:


> At this point I think It is better to address this problems somewhere else.


Yes. That would be a good idea. Nobody here can help you.


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## ilarionmoga (Aug 29, 2019)

ilarionmoga said:


> Proof of the problem


These reds do fall outside the sRGB in real life. They are really saturated in real life. So the sRGB color space is unable to show this red on the right coordinates in the visual spectrum. RawTherapee have the option to emulate the raw data color space to sRGB and all the colors that are outside this gamut are mapped inside it. It would be more correct to work in prophoto if we'd have a prophoto capable display, but it's not the case. Instead, we should have the option to edit in the working color space of our choice and have consistent results. 
So, the color management theory says that if I have a large color space image and I want to convert it to a smaller one, all the colors that fall outside this small profile, will be mapped into the most saturated color of that color space, loosing detail. It's like burning the highlights.


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## ilarionmoga (Aug 29, 2019)

It's not easy to understand, tel alone explain. So I might have done some mistakes in these messages, but I think you all got the idea after all. I tried to give you examples to understand and hope you did. It is beyond my purpose to insist explaining and I will try the bug report route. I wanted to see if there is anyone else interested in this and if someone did something for this to be solved.

Thank you everyone for the time consuming replays! It is very exciting to speak with you and I'd be glad to do so in other topics as well.
Good light everyone!


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## ilarionmoga (Aug 31, 2019)

Guys, I solved both problems I came to you. It is unbelievable that there is a solution for this.
The solution is: Lumariver 
I will come with further details, but the basic is that is all writen within the DNG profile. With Lumariver I can even compress the DNG Profile working color space to sRGB. This is awesome! Now I can work in Lightroom in all its glory. 
I am so satisfied I found a solution!


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## PhilBurton (Aug 31, 2019)

How do you use Lumariver in your workflow?


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## LouieSherwin (Aug 31, 2019)

PhilBurton said:


> How do you use Lumariver in your workflow?


Looking at the website it is a camera profile generator that uses the X-Rite ColorChecker Passport Photo target. So take a picture with it in the frame and then use that image in their software to create a new camera profile that can be selected as in the "Profile:" pulldown list in the Basic tab.

Looks kind of interesting but I could not say how it is different that the X-Rite profile generation tool that comes the the Passport target.

-louie


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## LouieSherwin (Sep 1, 2019)

ilarionmoga said:


> Guys, I solved both problems I came to you. It is unbelievable that there is a solution for this.
> The solution is: Lumariver
> I will come with further details, but the basic is that is all writen within the DNG profile. With Lumariver I can even compress the DNG Profile working color space to sRGB. This is awesome! Now I can work in Lightroom in all its glory.
> I am so satisfied I found a solution!



This is an interesting option thanks for sharing it. This certainly gives you a lot of options for how colors are interpreted in the raw conversion beyond what Lightroom offers. 

While I understand that by limiting the color space to sRGB solves some problems for you particularly rendering of out of gamut colors on your monitor you should consider that it has some consequences. The first is that gamut of modern digital sensors is well beyond sRGB and often beyond Adobe RGB. The second is  you cannot take advantage of wide gamut of many of the latest generation inkjet printers. Most of these printers are capable of printing  many colors outside of the sRGB gamut  and many can print colors outside the  Adobe RGB gamut. 

I am attaching a 3D graph that clearly demonstrates how much  potential color is lost by restricting yourself to sRGB. The good news here is that using a Limariver profile does not actually remove these captured colors but simply compresses the gamut as part of the raw conversion. That means that by simply using a unrestricted profile you still have access to all the color that is in original raw capture.

-louie


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## ilarionmoga (Oct 1, 2019)

LouieSherwin said:


> This is an interesting option thanks for sharing it. This certainly gives you a lot of options for how colors are interpreted in the raw conversion beyond what Lightroom offers.
> 
> While I understand that by limiting the color space to sRGB solves some problems for you particularly rendering of out of gamut colors on your monitor you should consider that it has some consequences. The first is that gamut of modern digital sensors is well beyond sRGB and often beyond Adobe RGB. The second is  you cannot take advantage of wide gamut of many of the latest generation inkjet printers. Most of these printers are capable of printing  many colors outside of the sRGB gamut  and many can print colors outside the  Adobe RGB gamut.
> 
> ...


Hi,
It's been awhile since I wrote to you. I went a long way in editing my raws. I found out something very good in Lightroom. Profiles with LUTs!!!
Yeah, wright, I didn't knew about it. So, I can apply the contrast curve within a Lut and use a Linear Adobe profile. This contrast curve can be in sRGB, Adobe RGB, P3 and Pro Photo. So no more problem here. Everithing is sorted out. In a very good fashion, albeit there is room for improvement.
Thank you all again. You are those that led me to find these options. Here is a link with more info. there are tons of youtube videos about this.
https://lutify.me/docs/how-to-apply-lutify-me-luts-in-adobe-photoshop-lightroom-classic-cc/


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## ilarionmoga (Oct 1, 2019)

LouieSherwin said:


> This is an interesting option thanks for sharing it. This certainly gives you a lot of options for how colors are interpreted in the raw conversion beyond what Lightroom offers.
> 
> While I understand that by limiting the color space to sRGB solves some problems for you particularly rendering of out of gamut colors on your monitor you should consider that it has some consequences. The first is that gamut of modern digital sensors is well beyond sRGB and often beyond Adobe RGB. The second is  you cannot take advantage of wide gamut of many of the latest generation inkjet printers. Most of these printers are capable of printing  many colors outside of the sRGB gamut  and many can print colors outside the  Adobe RGB gamut.
> 
> ...


Watch this video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVAtPSXX_xQ


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