# Need New Computer



## Paul_DS256 (Mar 2, 2020)

Even though my Dell XPS 8700 was running Windows 7 very nicely, like many, I was forced to upgrade to Windows 10. After frequent crashes, it would not come back nor will accept a new install (very long story with multiple attempts and needing to use the Intel Rapid Storage Tech built on the system board). Consequently, I am in the market for a new desktop computer.

I am now grappling between MAC and PC. The former locks you into a single HW+SW provider. The later means I need to deal with a bloated Windows 10 but have choices in HW. I'm also sensitive to some of the issues I've read here on LR on Catalina.

I've looked through the forums on this but all the topics seem to be dated. So, I'm looking for some suggestions. My old system was a gaming system with Intel i7 and 16GB memory. The drive setup had RAID capabilities with a 32GB SSD cache drive in front of a 2TB SATA drive. I used LR Classic 9.2 and Topaz Sharpen and Denoise.  It uses a nVIDIA Geforce GT card. The computer itself is from 2004. I also have an ASUS Pro Art monitor I want to continue to use.

So, here are my initial thoughts I'm looking for some comments on:

Not sure about MAC or PC as there seems to be a premium on MAC but all HW vendors now seem to have a premature EOL on equipment as new HW comes out and the SW makes use of the new features. I have a perfectly working Macbook from 2009 but I can't upgrade to OS to upgrade it from LR 6 to LR Classic.
Looking at Intel i5 or i7 chips. i9 seems a lot more expensive.
Stay with a minimum of 16GB memory which is recommended for the Topaz apps.
I'm thinking of getting a system with a 128GB SSD drive for OS and LR Catalog then moving my existing 2TB over for documents and pictures.
I'm confused about what I really need in a video card. My original system was sold as a gaming system. Postings here seem to indicate LR itself does not use the GPU much. Topaz calls for GPU VRAM of 4GB abd GTX of 970 or higher (need to look up what this later spec is). I know from the LR System Requirements I need Directx 12 and/or OpenGL 3.3 support.
Retain my ASUS monitor plus a 2nd and 3rd monitor connected using USB.
Thanks for comments and suggestions.


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## clee01l (Mar 2, 2020)

About 10 years ago I made the switch from Windows to Mac. 

Here are some things to consider:
A MBP costs about the same as a similarly equipped Microsoft Surface. 

Because Apple buys and installs well tested hardware in their MacBook Pros and iMacs, there is less of a chance for the hardware or its drivers to be the source of conflicts. 

Because Apple has limited hardware builds, Adobe generally runs without to many hiccups on Macs as opposed to various configured Windows boxes that may have hardware that does not play well with other components. 

The Mac Pro and the Mac Mini are more configurable with third party hardware.

While 16 GB of RAM is sufficient, 32GB is a little better. If you get an iMac, IMac Pro of MBP, then you buy it configured with your desired RAM OWV does sell 3rd party RAM and instructions for upgrading for the not to faint of heart. 

Because Adobe and other apps need Working storage (located on the primary drive) 256GB SSD is inadequate. Because there is barely enough room for the OS and a swap disk. 500GB is a minimum but 1TB SSD is now cheap enough that I’ve spec’d my last two iMacs with 1TB SSD. 

If you decide to stick with Windows, be prepared for a lot of “under the hood” tweaking to maintain performance. 

I would not use USB for additional monitors. The spec is too old and HDMI, DisplayPort or USB-C/TB3 are superior.

If you get a TB3 enclosure for your EHDs it is as fast as an internal Bus mounted disk. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## PhilBurton (Mar 2, 2020)

Paul_DS256 said:


> Even though my Dell XPS 8700 was running Windows 7 very nicely, like many, I was forced to upgrade to Windows 10. After frequent crashes, it would not come back nor will accept a new install (very long story with multiple attempts and needing to use the Intel Rapid Storage Tech built on the system board). Consequently, I am in the market for a new desktop computer.
> 
> I am now grappling between MAC and PC. The former locks you into a single HW+SW provider. The later means I need to deal with a bloated Windows 10 but have choices in HW. I'm also sensitive to some of the issues I've read here on LR on Catalina.
> 
> ...


Paul,

One of the existential issues for a LR user.    If you want to get an idea of how much you could spend on a custom-built PC, and why, go to www.pugetsystems.com.  I've never dealt with them so I'm not recommending them, just mentioning them.  You don't mention if you want a desktop or laptop, but I'm assuming that you want a desktop, based on the fact that you have an existing desktop system.  

Clee noted that a MPB costs about as much as a similarly equipped Microsoft Surface.  Having been in the market for a new laptop (for my wife) recently, I can tell you that other vendors' product lines are more than price-competitive with Microsoft.  Consider Lenovo and ASUS.

Do you want to build  your own system or buy a system either from a major vendor or get a custom-built system?  You won't really save any money by building your own, but you do get _exactly _what you want, along with occasional moments of "excitement" as the system gets built and you install Windows.  If you go to a custom system builder, you should insist on a warranty that includes a full burn-in, plus complete hardware/software compatibility, meaning all hardware drivers are installed and working properly.  

From various tests done by Puget Systems, you would be better served for by getting an AMD Ryzen 3xxx series CPU, rather than an Intel model.  

About graphics cards, I have the impression that Adobe favors the nVidia architecture over the AMD architecture.  The choice of graphics card brings out many opinions about how much you need to spend, and why.  I will make this observation.  IF you are like me, and keep a system for many years, it pays to "overspec" a bit.  That means at least 32 GB of RAM and a more powerful graphics card, since Adobe seems to be utilitizing the GPU more and more with recent releases of Lightroom.  For me that means an nVidia GTX 2060.  Yes, it's more expensive.

For a new system, that SSD drive should be an "NVMe" stick, rather than an HDD replacement.  Faster interface.

I will be happy to answer additional questions.  Right now, as I write this, I'm planning out my next build.

Phil Burton


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## Paul_DS256 (Mar 2, 2020)

Thanks Cletus. You're reply was very useful


clee01l said:


> A MBP costs about the same as a similarly equipped Microsoft Surface.


I had not even considered a Microsoft Surface. Can you use the touch surface instead of the mouse in the Develop module?


clee01l said:


> The Mac Pro and the Mac Mini are more configurable with third party hardware.


Ah, thanks. I was not aware of that and your observation that Windows HW and SW does not always play well together is definite minus.


clee01l said:


> 500GB is a minimum but 1TB SSD is now cheap enough that I’ve spec’d my last two iMacs with 1TB SSD


Thanks for the recommendation


clee01l said:


> would not use USB for additional monitors. The spec is too old and HDMI, DisplayPort or USB-C/TB3 are superior.


I hear you but I hate giving up something when it works. 


clee01l said:


> If you get a TB3 enclosure for your EHDs it is as fast as an internal Bus mounted disk


I wasn't aware of the TB3 speed until I saw a comparison chart yesterday. Impressive.


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## Paul_DS256 (Mar 2, 2020)

PhilBurton said:


> f you want to get an idea of how much you could spend on a custom-built PC, and why, go to www.pugetsystems.com.


OMG! The price tag for their base unit for a Lightroom Solution is US$3,400. That's at least CA$4,500 here in Canada. I think I can do better.


PhilBurton said:


> You won't really save any money by building your own, but you do get _exactly _what you want,


That's what my son has told me. He's done it both buy and build.


PhilBurton said:


> moments of "excitement" as the system gets built and you install Windows


IMHO, there is no excitement in installing Windows 10; just sheer terror.


PhilBurton said:


> I have the impression that Adobe favors the nVidia architecture over the AMD architecture.


I had not heard that. How LR uses GPU is a mystery. Topaz has higher video card requirements.


PhilBurton said:


> IF you are like me, and keep a system for many years, it pays to "overspec" a bit.


Well, the other side of that is to buy refurb or something that is older. New systems to me have an additional cost. With cameras, I look at the previous generation where I can find savings.


PhilBurton said:


> Right now, as I write this, I'm planning out my next build.


I wouldn't mind seeing what you settle on.
Thanks


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## Conrad Chavez (Mar 2, 2020)

PhilBurton said:


> About graphics cards, I have the impression that Adobe favors the nVidia architecture over the AMD architecture.


I think that impression may have been more true in the past, but it is no longer as evident or practical today. In Puget Systems’ article about hardware recommendations for Lightroom Classic, they say that “Lightroom Classic cannot effectively utilize a high-end GPU at the moment, but we still recommend a mid-range GPU…” so the specific architecture may not matter so much for absolute top performance in Lightroom Classic. And then, in Puget Systems’ article about using GPUs for Lightroom Classic Enhanced Details (admittedly a niche case), they pitted one AMD Radeon Vega 8GB against eight Nvidia GPUs, and the AMD nearly beat them all. Only two of the eight Nvidia cards were faster than the AMD, and not by very much.

The one place where Nvidia has traditionally been a higher-performance choice for Adobe apps is in high-end video editing with Adobe Premiere Pro and After Effects. I think that’s where that recommendation comes from; video editors insisting on Nvidia over the years, for good reason. Adobe video applications, especially in Windows, got nice boosts from their optimizations for Nvidia GPUs, and Nvidia pushed those hard in their marketing. But I'm not sure how true that still is today, or if those video-oriented performance advantages ever extended to photo editing with Photoshop and Lightroom.

And, the situation is completely flipped over if the decision is to buy a Mac. Because for top performance on the latest Macs and macOS, what matters is whether the GPU supports Apple Metal 2. Apple and Nvidia are not talking at this point, so there are no Nvidia GPUs installed or supported on currently sold models of any Apple hardware platform. On the Mac, Adobe Premiere Pro and Lightroom Classic both name Metal in their GPU preferences. Premiere Pro labels Metal as the "recommended" choice of its three rendering options (Metal, OpenCL, and software-only), and on the Mac, that only means AMD at this point.


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## Gnits (Mar 3, 2020)

I have been put a lot of time and effort researching what to do about replacing my ageing Windows workstation.  I have my ideal config sorted and was just about to order a custom build (ie I decide on the key components and a reputable company builds it for me) when my laptop failed. Now I am replacing my laptop  and have to defer my workstation build to later. I personally have decide to go down the Windows route.

Here are the key decisions I made.
Ryzen 3900 processor (and not the 3950 because the 3900 has less cores but more horsepower per core).
32GB of fast memory, leaving room for another 32GB as a future upgrade.
System Drive of at least 512GB for Windows and apps.  Select a high speed nvme drive connected directly to the motherboard.
A second NVME drive (at least 512 GB). I opted for Corsair Force MP600 500GB M.2 PCIe Gen 4 NVMe SSD/Solid State Drive w/ Heatsink. This drive will hold my Lr catalog and various Raw and Photoshop cache folders. Dedicated to this function and other than the catalog configured  not to contain any data.

The mother board I selected is the Gigabyte AMD Ryzen X570 AORUS MASTER AM4 PCIe 4.0 ATX, mainly because I wanted the best possible ability for  the motherboard to handle the heat of the cpu.

I selected the following graphics card.... NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1660 SUPER 6GB SC ULTRA Turing Graphics Card ... on the basis that Lr/PS does not take full advantage of the graphics card processing capacity and by spending modestly on this card now, I will not mind upgrading this in a year or two or three when Adobe more fully utilise graphic cards and there are clearer recommendations on the value of high end expensive graphics cards.  I am conscious also that the high end graphics cards now generate considerable heat and often need their own cooling systems.

*Data and images storage.* I would like to use  NAS (I have one, but the network connection is way too slow and getting 10Gb NAS and related 10Gb network components is too expensive right now).   I am tempted into buying a Thunderbolt 3 External drive (maybe by Lacie) for my data storage (and backing this up to a much slower Nas drive). It is possible to get much cheaper external drives for backup.   These Thunderbolt 3  drives have tremendous data transfer rates, but you have to make sure your drive is Thunderbolt 3, your computer port fully supports Thunderbolt 3 and the cable is end to end Thunderbolt 3.   You will see lots of good external drives for sale as Thunderbolt drives, but many of these are the earlier versions of Thunderbolt and will not achieve the data transfer rates possible with Thunderbolt 3 end to end.


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## Paul_DS256 (Mar 3, 2020)

Thanks all for the observations and suggestions.

As it turns out, I was able to get Windows 10 to install on my existing PC. Some combination of repartitioning, removing the SSD from in from of the HDD plus forcing the install to use the latest Intel drivers seems to have worked.

However, after all of this, and from comments here and from friends, there is a MAC in my future.


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## mcasan (Mar 3, 2020)

Beside me is my pile X570 Aorus Master motherboard, an AMD 5700 GPU, 32GB of memory, a Sabrent 4.0 2TB SSD, and Corsair power supply.   I was waiting for the new case, one of the Dune Pro units, to arrive before I purchased a Ryzen 3900.    I should have had the case by now; however,  the virus mess started in China just as the prototypes where completed. Production was to start after their New Year celebration.   With the virus crisis no one knows for sure when those new cases will be produced or shipped.    Once the new machine is up and running, I will move  my RAID 0 SSD set from the external Netstor enclosure to internal SSD mounting positions.   I will also install a HDD inside on a SATA connection to be the Time Machine backup drive.   All drives will be internal.   The machine should be able to boot either Windows 10 or MacOS as a Hackintosh.


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## Gnits (Mar 3, 2020)

mcasan said:


> Beside me is my pile X570 Aorus Master motherboard, an AMD 5700 GPU, 32GB of memory, a Sabrent 4.0 2TB SSD, and Corsair power supply.   I was waiting for the new case, one of the Dune Pro units, to arrive before I purchased a Ryzen 3900.    I should have had the case by now; however,  the virus mess started in China just as the prototypes where completed. Production was to start after their New Year celebration.   With the virus crisis no one knows for sure when those new cases will be produced or shipped.    Once the new machine is up and running, I will move  my RAID 0 SSD set from the external Netstor enclosure to internal SSD mounting positions.   I will also install a HDD inside on a SATA connection to be the Time Machine backup drive.   All drives will be internal.   The machine should be able to boot either Windows 10 or MacOS as a Hackintosh.


Amazing .... so similar in many ways to my config.  Different graphics card...ok... Different storage system...great you can re use your existing data storage... mine is at end of life.....  When I get my own built some time later this year, I might refer back, to consider making mine boot to Windows or Mac.  There are some great apps on the Mac not available on Win and apps on Win which are behind the curve on Mac....  Hope all works well for you.


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## mcasan (Mar 3, 2020)

Just ordered by Ryzen 9 3900x CPU.    From Amazon after applying a gift card and reward points from Amex......delivered cost will be $375.    Both Amazon and B&H have the CPUs listed for $420.    Big drop from Christmas.


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## PhilBurton (Mar 3, 2020)

This thread is turning out to be extremely timely for me.   Only yesterday, in message #3 I posted that I was "planinng out my next build."    That would have been an entirely new system, keeping my old system as a backup/future NAS/"testbed"/etc.  Then I discovered why Lightroom has been sluggish lately.  I'm down to 8 GB, one stick of memory.  This system started out with 32 GB, in four memory slots.  Last year, the system started to report only 24 GB and then 16 GB.  I was playing "whack-a-slot" to find two slots that still functioned.  Now I'm down to just one slot, so it looks like the system is failing, and I need to do a "transplant" into my current system case.  I know that the memory sticks are all good.

I have been doing some background research, but now I need to accelerate all that, buy parts, and do my rebuild probably in in late March, after a short out of town trip.  To answer Paul in message #5, and for everyone in this thread, here are my purchase plans:


AMD 3900X CPU.  Use the stock cooler, meaning no replacement air or water cooler.
ASUS ROG Strix-E motherboard.  X570 chipset, reviews well.  I have had good luck with ASUS motherboards for over 20 years, I know how the BIOS is laid out, etc.
32 GB RAM.  Brand and speed TBD, but probably 3600.  No RGB lighting or other "bling."
AMD graphics card, tbd.  (Thank you to Conrad Chavez, message #6)
Sabrent 1 TB Rocket NVME PCIE 4.0 M.2 2280 - for Wiindows and program, "data" including Lightroom catalog.

I am going to reuse the rest of my current system.

Corsair 800D case (old but good)
Corsair 850 AX power supply
Dell 24" monitor
Silverstone drive bay card reader
4 TB Hitachi HDD (bulk storage for photos, music, iPhone/iPad libraries, software install files.)
10 TB Western Digital HDD, backup drive.
Samsung 850 SSD.  Will be repurposed as Windows swap space and cache folders (Thank you to Gnits, message #7)
LG DVD read/write drive.  

With an AMD graphics card, maybe there is even a Hackintosh in my future, but that is the subject of a different thread.  (Again, thank you to Gnits, message #10.)

What amazes me is the depth of knowledge in this forum about a topic other than Lightroom.    This forum is truly exceptional.

Phil Burton


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## Gnits (Mar 4, 2020)

Hi Phil,

I have deliberately avoided putting my catalog on the C drive for a few reasons.
1. If you have a decent size catalog, then the catalog grows and grows. However, you also build up lots and lots of subfolders which contains preview and smart previews. These become massive in time and are also disk i/o intensive for various Lr batch processes. I do not like having such large set of folders that can grow organically on my C drive. You may also inadvertantly be putting your Catalog backups on the same drive.
2. I only have O/S and Apps on my C Drive (I have my emails and MyDocs and all other such folders on my data drive).  This makes it a trivial exercise for me to do an automated incremental backup of my C drive every morning and a full backup every Sunday.  I once had to rebuild a system disk after a drive failure and NEVER want to do that again (even though my data was safe on another drive.  If my system drive fails I have a recovery to the previous day as a worst case scenario. The size of the backup does not expand with the amount of previews been created by Lr on an ongoing basis.
3. By putting the catalog on a dedicated drive (ie Catalog plus Adobe cache folders) I only have to worry about backing up the actual catalog file.  I have a daily routine which copies my Catalog and all new or changed files on my data drive to an external backup disk (which in turn is backed up to a slow Nas drive).
I use Macrium Reflect for my system drive backup and Beyond Compare for copying new and changed data files to my backup drive.


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## Paul_DS256 (Mar 4, 2020)

Love the discussion. This is a thread I'm definitely going to bookmark.

I've realized that my pursuit of getting W10 running was my desire not to waste good hardware despite the software. I like to repair instead of recycle. However, I did discover one of my challenges was that the disk controller was embedded on the motherboard. I'm thinking in the future, if I built my own, I could use more discrete components that could be independently replaced as needed. I'm stuck with an EOL Intel embedded controller now.


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## Gnits (Mar 4, 2020)

Try to ensure you have  a motherboard where you can plug in nVME drives directly to the motherboard using Pcie4, especially for drives where you need performance, such as a Systems Drive and or a drive for a Lightroom Catalog and Adobe cache folders.    These drives have come way down in price and really useful for these roles at say 500GB size.

For larger data storage, you can now get external Thunderbolt 3 drives with super transfer speeds, either as a temporary solution while you figure out a long term data store solution or as a means of migrating from one solution to another over time (as long as you have a Thunderbolt 3 port on your computer.


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## PhilBurton (Mar 4, 2020)

Gnits said:


> Hi Phil,
> 
> I have deliberately avoided putting my catalog on the C drive for a few reasons.


Reviewing my last post, I wasnt' clear.  My current system SSD is actually partitioned into separate C: and D: drives.  That way, I isolate all my data, including emails, general Microsoft Office files, and of course my Lightroom catalog, onto a drive that is separate from Windows and programs.  The only "data" on the C: drive is the ProgramData, configuration settings, etc.  I install all my Lightroom plug-ins on C: also.

Bulk data, such as the actual photo files, music, iTunes library, etc., are all on a 4 TB HDD, drive E:



> 1. If you have a decent size catalog, then the catalog grows and grows. However, you also build up lots and lots of subfolders which contains preview and smart previews. These become massive in time and are also disk i/o intensive for various Lr batch processes. I do not like having such large set of folders that can grow organically on my C drive. You may also inadvertantly be putting your Catalog backups on the same drive.


Agreed with all that you have said.  I do all my backups to an internal HDD, drive G:, which includes catalog backups, as well as all my daily backups of drives C: and D:.  (I use Retrospect Desktop, which can work for up to six systems, so I use it to back up all the systems on my LAN.)


> 2. I only have O/S and Apps on my C Drive (I have my emails and MyDocs and all other such folders on my data drive).  This makes it a trivial exercise for me to do an automated incremental backup of my C drive every morning and a full backup every Sunday.  I once had to rebuild a system disk after a drive failure and NEVER want to do that again (even though my data was safe on another drive.  If my system drive fails I have a recovery to the previous day as a worst case scenario. The size of the backup does not expand with the amount of previews been created by Lr on an ongoing basis.
> 3. By putting the catalog on a dedicated drive (ie Catalog plus Adobe cache folders) I only have to worry about backing up the actual catalog file.  I have a daily routine which copies my Catalog and all new or changed files on my data drive to an external backup disk (which in turn is backed up to a slow Nas drive).
> I use Macrium Reflect for my system drive backup and Beyond Compare for copying new and changed data files to my backup drive.


I also use and swear by Beyond Compare, but there is another utility that I find useful for synchronization between folders.  File Sync & Backup Software | GoodSync.  I use the paid version.  I used to use various freebies for disk synchronization, but they all failed to work properly under heavy loads.


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## Gnits (Mar 4, 2020)

Hi Phil,
You have this well covered and you clearly understand the nuts and bolts of this.

I was keen to warn people of the downside of putting a Lightroom Catalog on a C drive where other factors such as performance, workflow and backup strategies need to be optimised. This is especially true if people have small or slow C drives.

I also have GoodSync and went back to BeyondCompare for a reason I cannot remember now.  I have revisited their web site am very impressed with the range of platforms now supported. I may revisit as I migrate to a new laptop, then Thunderbolt data storage and then perhaps a new Windows workstation. I suspect GoodSynch may have better scheduling options, always useful for automating these daily tasks.

Regards.


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## PhilBurton (Mar 4, 2020)

Gnits said:


> Hi Phil,
> You have this well covered and you clearly understand the nuts and bolts of this.




I  think you also have the situation covered well, which I appreciate.  As do others in this forum.



> I was keen to warn people of the downside of putting a Lightroom Catalog on a C drive where other factors such as performance, workflow and backup strategies need to be optimised. This is especially true if people have small or slow C drives.


+1 to what you wrote here.  I would add to that the importance of daily backups of the catalog.


> I also have GoodSync and went back to BeyondCompare for a reason I cannot remember now.  I have revisited their web site am very impressed with the range of platforms now supported. I may revisit as I migrate to a new laptop, then Thunderbolt data storage and then perhaps a new Windows workstation. I suspect GoodSynch may have better scheduling options, always useful for automating these daily tasks.
> 
> Regards.


I prefer Goodsync to Beyond Compare because it is automatic and "just works" with the jobs I have set up.  Beyond Compare is great for one-off problem solving.

Phil


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