# On1 RAW and Layers



## davidedric (Apr 30, 2017)

In their latest puff, On1 say they will be introducing layers into their non-destructive workflow.  
ON1 Photo RAW 2017 – Roadmap Update

Their delivery to date hasn't been impressive, but if they can offer that with acceptable performance it becomes a very interesting product.  

Lightroom 7/8/9? 

Dave


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## Ian.B (May 1, 2017)

I'm liking it Dave; certainly not perfect but what program is?.  
Have you used it? I don't mean for a few hours or days  . Editing layers are rather different to PS 

I still use LR5, it's still best for filing and most raw pp  but then most files go into on1 to add a bit of wow factor. I have reinstalled PSE12 just to line up files in collages as on1 doesn't have a ruler grid  PSE is also better for moving layers around. I have forgotten mostly what PS could do and I how I used it but I never had newer than CS3

LR/PS are still best for pros IMO and those who  are 'locked' mentally into adobe --- I'm not sure ON1 would offer them a lot. It's far harder to learn a new program when you are very used to others --- who remembers the dramas we had when learning the LR after knowing the  PS way . I gave up 3-4 times .

I'm now kicking myself I didn't wake up to ON1 earlier. Yes; I did wander through older ON1 quickly, but didn't stop there long enough to learn or even find the parts I could use 

If you are a heavy adobe user and have a set work flow or cannot open your mind to something new _and very _different than ON1 is likely not for you. 

However I think ON1 would be a good starting point for newbies/less experienced/casual happy-snappers and those who don't want to be "lock" into CC ; or the catalog system that seems to create  most questions of this forum 

ATM I'm happy to suuport a program that at least seems an alternative or a future alternative to adobe ps which has become too big imo. Weekend happy snappers don't need _ALL _that stuff.


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## davidedric (May 1, 2017)

I've had Photo10 and it's predecessor for two or three years, and like you I use it for adding things I can't in Lightroom, though I don't do that very often.  (I'm on CC, but after  a couple of real attempts at PS have given up. I just don't need it often enough to remember how to use it.)

I've invested a lot of time in learning Lightroom, and I'm not looking for a replacement RAW processor, so I've followed a few threads on On1 RAW just to see what is going on.  I was struck by layers in RAW processing. I imagine it could lead to some pretty computer stretching processing and humongous files, but it will still be interesting to see what is delivered.

Dave


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## Cerianthus (May 1, 2017)

I am just surprised why the layers is such a big deal when the old Bibble and Aftershot Pro have supported this for years. I used those before LR and don't really miss the layers option. 


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## Johan Elzenga (May 1, 2017)

It depends on what you do with layers. Lightroom has a kind of layers already. The adjustment brush, radial filter and graduated filter are like adjustment layers with their masks in Photoshop. The interface is different and they are not called 'layers', but the functionality is exactly the same. That is also what Bibble and Aftershot have, if I remember correctly. Using layers to combine images is a whole different ballgame for raw converters, if the result is still 'raw' (like panorama or hdr in Lightroom).


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## mcasan (May 1, 2017)

Just remember that in the December roadmap they promised a Lr migration tool that would move Lr non-destructive edits into non-destructive Photo RAW edits.   In the latest roadmap, that key part of the migration tool has been dropped.   I would bet it will be 2018 before there is a non-destructive version of Layers.


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## Ian.B (May 1, 2017)

JohanElzenga said:


> Lightroom has a kind of layers already. The adjustment brush, radial filter and graduated filter are like adjustment layers with their masks in Photoshop.


 I have often tried to explain that way also --- many  seem to like  the layers listed as in PS


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## Ian.B (May 1, 2017)

mcasan said:


> Just remember that in the December roadmap they promised a Lr migration tool that would move Lr non-destructive edits into non-destructive Photo RAW edits.   In the latest roadmap, that key part of the migration tool has been dropped.   I would bet it will be 2018 before there is a non-destructive version of Layers.


I read something about the other day --- will try to find and post it. Not something I have wanted or needed so far.


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## Ian.B (May 1, 2017)

davidedric said:


> I've had Photo10 and it's predecessor for two or three years, and like you I use it for adding things I can't in Lightroom, though I don't do that very often.  (I'm on CC, but after  a couple of real attempts at PS have given up. *I just don't need it often enough to remember how to use it.*



That is certainly a fair comment. And the more programs we have to harder it is  unless we are editing all day or week . I very seldom use Nik now as it just add another layer of complex to remember



davidedric said:


> *I've invested a lot of time in learning Lightroom,* and I'm not looking for a replacement RAW processor, so I've followed a few threads on On1 RAW just to see what is going on.  I was struck by layers in RAW processing. I imagine it could lead to some pretty computer stretching processing and humongous files, but it will still be interesting to see what is delivered.
> Dave



Lightroom IMO is still the program for those who want o_ne program _and it is _very _powerful editing platform for those who do invest in the time to learn. However atm I cannot see myself "investing" more money into new versions past LR5; hence the need to look elsewhere

The layers in ON1 raw pp is not a lot different to using various tools in LR; however, how those tools are actually listed as a "layers" stack is the different part . I still feel LR is better for basic raw editing and I have notice a few ON1 gurus do use LR first
The same set up is used in On1 Effects so there is still not the PS looking layers pallet. However when the right button is click the blending options pallet opens (just found it) and to be better than abode you just need to run the cursor over  the different options to see the actual effect which can selectively adjusted with the masking tools
The actual layer pallets is where you blend files/make collages and the likes so that is seldom used in most single file editing . As I say; it's _not prefect_--- far from it although I'm learning different tricks as I poke along  . My drama is remembering what and how I did it yesterday!! The best tool is the Dynamic contrast; now that's puts a kick into my little files 


I look at ON1 as an 'alternative' to PS and still a great affordable pay once program for someone wanting to get into editing


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## mcasan (May 3, 2017)

I can see the Photo RAW Develop module as a replacement for Lr Develop.   Of course Photo RAW does not have the Map, Book, Slideshow modules...etc.    On the other hand, Photo RAW has Effects which does go beyond what you can do in native Lr.    Even if On1 does make Layers non-destructive, I don't see it as a 100% match for Ps.  I can't see On1 putting Calculations in Layers.   And you need Calculations to do very detailed masks based on color or luminosity.


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## Ian.B (May 4, 2017)

I have never seen on1 as replacement for PS mcasan; LR maybe in the future . Those used to and have a good handle on adobe and others will _always _miss the more specialise tools they need and use . I see ON1 as now a serious program for weekend happy snappers and those just getting an interest in taking their photography to the next leave. Although I have never had better than CS3/PSE12 I have not missed PS apart from ruler/grid, but I was able to put this together in ON1 . Just a bit of tree bark -- Lumix fz300 jpg pic. For those interested; I am posting a few before/after pics on my facebook page and on the ON1 users FB group
I hope this is allowed to show off  . As with much of my photography; once it's all done I lose interest and have very little or no use for them but I'm certainly not giving LR away (just yet)


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## mcasan (May 4, 2017)

I think with On1 stepping up its game with Photo RAW and Macphun planning  a DAM for Luminar.....Lr will have very serious competetion from them plus Affinity and of course C1P.  If Lr did not come in a CC bundle with Ps, it would have a harder and harder time in the marketplace.


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## davidedric (May 4, 2017)

Actually, I think On1 have a lot of catching up to do.

If Adobe had a released software as riddled with bugs as Photo RAW there would have been laughter and an outcry heard all the way to San Jose!

Dave


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## mcasan (May 4, 2017)

But Adobe did.   Remember their redesign of the Lr Import dialog months ago?   And as I remember they did get a huge public outcry over it.


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## johnbeardy (May 4, 2017)

That only goes to show that people resist change. It wasn't buggy.


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## davidedric (May 4, 2017)

Or maybe that particular change was ill advised - but, as you say, it wasn't buggy


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## Ian.B (May 4, 2017)

davidedric said:


> Actually, I think On1 have a lot of catching up to do.


 I totally agree with that; _especially_ with the Library section. I don't have any regrets for helping the little guy grow up just a little and I often feel ON1 could be a stand alone program for me  if I didn't know LR so well . So sorry; you lot are stuck with me for awhile longer --- um forever


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## Robert Reiser (May 5, 2017)

mcasan said:


> Just remember that in the December roadmap they promised a Lr migration tool that would move Lr non-destructive edits into non-destructive Photo RAW edits.   In the latest roadmap, that key part of the migration tool has been dropped.   I would bet it will be 2018 before there is a non-destructive version of Layers.



Not only that their rollout plan has been significantly delayed, but what I really dislike is how aggressively they promote their "PRO" package - I just hope they don't run out of money.


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## mcasan (May 5, 2017)

That is part of why I not only will not migrate from CC to Photo RAW, I deleted Photo RAW and got a refund.     I wish them luck.


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## PhilBurton (May 5, 2017)

mcasan said:


> That is part of why I not only will not migrate from CC to Photo RAW, I deleted Photo RAW and got a refund.     I wish them luck.


I'm not surprised that their rollout plan is significantly delayed, with a major miss on Lightroom import.  I _AM _surprised that you got a refund.

Phil Burton


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## mcasan (May 5, 2017)

They have been saying that for months.   If you purchase it and don't want to keep it, you get a refund.


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## Ian.B (May 6, 2017)

I have been trying for a few days (week) of going with ON1 only --- maybe I'm too used to the LR way for that idea --- still needed lR for K/Ws and LR does seem better for the 1st basic editing stuff. That said I have grown to like and therefore want to use some of the editing toys in ON1 . Certainly a way off as a stand alone program for anyone except beginners and occasional happy snappers. Disappointing in a way.
 Been/is a good timely thread Dave that hasn't blown up into ON1 v Adobe thing like the Nikon/canon threads usual do  Don't know why they blow up when Olympus is better than both


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## mcasan (May 13, 2017)

> Don't know why they blow up when Olympus is better than both.



That is why the wife and I moved to E-M1 3 years ago from 40 years of shooting Canon SLR and DSLR.  I think we still have a Canon A-1 in the bottom of the closet.


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## Ian.B (May 14, 2017)

mcasan said:


> That is why the wife and I moved to E-M1 3 years ago from 40 years of shooting Canon SLR and DSLR.  I think we still have a Canon A-1 in the bottom of the closet.


strangely enough I am notice photographers who in the past   reticulated my preferences for smaller cameras are now going smaller or no camera at all because they are sick of lugging big dslr bodies and lenses . Nothing stays the same


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## mcasan (May 14, 2017)

In one of our photo clubs around 1/3 of the folks are doing m43 due to size, weight, and cost benefits.    As we get older m43 makes more and more sense.


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## davidedric (May 15, 2017)

Old age and decrepitude is why I switched, and I've not regretted it for a moment, either ergonomically or geographically (remind me how we got here from On1 layers  )

Dave


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