# Meta data changed by Photoshop - how to handle?



## Susan Taylor Brown (Sep 1, 2012)

I've finally started to print some of my photos - yay! I develop them in Lightroom then export them then open them in Photoshop in order to print. In PS I might make some changes, usually to lighten things a little, adjust the size, etc. I noticed that I am getting, sometimes, this message in Lightroom:






I'm not sure how to handle it. My thought was that once I exported the  photos, it would be just like if I was exporting them to post online, a  separate thing from Lightroom. Normally with photos I'll post online  I'll export them, post them wherever, then delete them. With printing I  have a folder set up to print and because I plan to print a lot of some  of these (making some greeting cards) I'll save the files. But I don't  know what to do about that metadata message and I'm not sure when I'm  getting it. 

I'm new to Photoshop so I just figured out that after making changes I  end up saving it as a TIFF. Which is great because I save that in the  "printing" folder and can rename the files to keep track of what is  being used for the cards. 

At what point does the meta data message go back to LR? 
Any thoughts on best practices for this sort of thing?

Thanks.


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## Susan Taylor Brown (Sep 2, 2012)

Okay, so I found this thread on the Adobe forums that explains it but my head is still spinning and I have no idea what I want to do for a best practice.

When I export something and mess around with it in PS and then save it as a TIFF, I want that to stay in the exported files and have nothing to do with my original file in LR. I want LR to keep my negative with only the changes I do in LR. Anything I am doing outside of LR is to print, which is also done outside of LR. So what answer do I give LR when this pops up?


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## Jim Wilde (Sep 2, 2012)

Susan, I'm not entirely clear on your workflow so can you elaborate a little?

To start with, you said in your first post that you "export then open them in Photoshop". What does this mean exactly: that you export (what format are you exporting as) and then open the exported file in PS....or after the export are you then opening the original file in PS? Do you add exported files back into the catalog? Are you using the inbuilt "bridge" between LR and PS, i.e. using the "Edit in Photoshop" process, or not.

The point is that if you are indeed opening exported files in PS outside Lightroom, there should be no metadata conflict at all.....so there's a piece of information missing somewhere that would probably explain things.

When we've got the workflow understood, we'll probably be able to answer your final question. One more question: when you get that message on a particular file, is the file one of those involved in this particular workflow, or maybe something else?


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## Susan Taylor Brown (Sep 2, 2012)

Thanks for stopping by to help me figure this out, Jim. I can't figure out the missing steps. The only thing I was doing last night was printing a bunch of test prints. I expected all the files to have conflicts but it appears to be inconsistent. (I'm sure there's a link, I just don't know what it is yet.)

I just did one and here are my steps. Same thing, as far as I know, that I was doing yesterday.

Open file in LR. Adjust it to the crop size I want.
Export the file as a JPEG.
Open the JPEG in PS.
PS asks me if I want to convert it to PS working space (or ignore, etc) and I say yes.
I just now adjusted the size in PS and then closed the file. No change in LR.
I reopened the file, made a levels adjustment, saved it as a TIFF. Checked LR and again no change.

Shoot, just checked more files in LR and some of them say "Conflict with the sidecar". These are files that were originally shot as JPEGS.

I just tried this with several files and now I can't replicate it. I'm doing very basic edits in LR. Sometimes size (been trying to figure out a borderless printing issue) and sometimes a simple levels adjustment. That's all. Sometimes I saved the info. Sometimes I didn't.

As for your final question, the only files I had it happening to yesterday were files that I was printing. All all the printing was done by exporting from LR then opening in PS and printing from there.

Thanks for the assist.
http://forums.adobe.com/thread/831948


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## Jim Wilde (Sep 2, 2012)

I assume your third point should read "Open in PS"?

If you are exporting a file from LR which you subsequently open in PS, there should be no way that could cause the metadata conflict that you are describing. Unless....

Is it possible that when you open the exported file in PS you are by mistake opening the original file instead?

Or, is it possible that when you export the file from LR you are also adding it back into the catalog? That would certainly cause the problem if you then open and edit the file in PS without using the "Edit in...." process.


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## Susan Taylor Brown (Sep 2, 2012)

Whoops on point 3. I just corrected the post. It appears I haven't had enough coffee yet this morning. 

Well, when I export the files from LR, I export them to a folder called "to print" then I go into PS, navigate to that folder and open from there. So I don't think I am opening the original file by mistake. But I can go back and check the datestamps on the original files and see if they are changed.

Okay, now we are getting somewhere. I obviously do not clearly understand the connection between LR and PS as I am mucking things up. I went back to the original files on the disk and it does appear that those have all been changed which is NOT what I want to have happen. I'm not sure how it is happening as I know I am opening the files in PS from the "to print" folder.

Can you guide me, perhaps to a better workflow? I thought exporting things to a folder and treating all those exports as disposable files to delete when I was done printing was the way to go. That way everything could be done outside of LR and LR would retain my originals.

Also, is there any way to find all the files with conflicts so I can get them to all be reverted back to LR status?


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## Susan Taylor Brown (Sep 2, 2012)

This is what I want to do:

1. Edit photos in LR. 
2. Export photos in order to print them.
3. Open them in PS, possibly make changes ONLY for printing.
4. Save as a TIFF or JPEG or whatever I should save it as so I can reprint the photo later without having to do anything else to it.
5. Go back to LR and be able to hit RESET and still have the original, unedited photo there.


Are there settings in LR or PS that I might have inadvertently set that is telling it to write back to the catalog? Okay, just checked and for the record, in Catalog settings, I have the option in the catalog settings “Automatically write changes into XMP”checked. Is this a good practice or is this what is causing the issue?


I have not been able to replicate again yet today but I have about 300 photos to prep to print.

Note: I also rename the exported file so I am sure that I am opening the exported file and not the original.


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## Susan Taylor Brown (Sep 2, 2012)

Jim, (or anyone)
If you're still with me here, it appears I have something else going on. I've been working JUST in Lightroom today. No exporting. No printing. I've been cropping files and that's it. Adding and removing them from a collection. I just cropped a file. Looked at it and was ready to remove it from the collection when all of the sudden, the meta data changed message popped up on the file.

This makes no sense at all because I haven't had the file in another application. I have only had it in Lightroom.

I did have Photoshop OPEN, but had no files open. And I know for a fact that I never opened this file in Photoshop. Yet the message says that the meta data was changed by Lightroom and another application. What other application could do so? Sigh. I don't even know how to begin to troubleshoot this now. And I closed Photoshop, opened another file, cropped it. Went back to the library grid, and I got the metadata error message again.


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## Jim Wilde (Sep 2, 2012)

Susan, I'm still following but at this moment I really don't have much of a clue. If the workflow is indeed as you described then this issue shouldn't be happening. I know there have been some problems in this area, maybe you've run into it, but I'm not overly familiar with the ins and outs. I'll sleep on it and try to get a more coherent response to you tomorrow.


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## Susan Taylor Brown (Sep 2, 2012)

Thanks, Jim. It seems to be happening more frequently now yet it is still intermittent. I opened two files, cropped, adjusted, closed, everything was fine. Opened the next one, cropped, no other adjustments, got the message. 

I have no other programs open at all.

My workaround at the moment is to watch for the error message and then revert back to the catalog settings.

On the plus side, this doesn't seem to be connected with my workflow to export JPEGS from Lightroom and then open them in Photoshop in order to print.


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## Susan Taylor Brown (Sep 3, 2012)

Jim,
Found this old post which may or may not be related.

I just checked my Picture folder and it appears that some of folders in it were read-only. I changed that and will continue to test through-out the day. Perhaps by the time you check in again in the morning, all will be well. I can hope.


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## Susan Taylor Brown (Sep 3, 2012)

Well Jim, I'm calling it a night. We found some issues but nothing solved it. 

Looks like in Windows 7 you can't just click on the folder properties and change them. So I went into the security section and reassigned the ownership to myself and was finally able to grant the correct permissions. That helped with some of the old files that were throwing errors but recent files from just the past month or two are still throwing frequent errors. Sometimes it is the error with writing meta data and some times I get an error that their is a sidecar conflict. 

For now I am just telling it to overwrite with what is in the catalog and move along.  

I'm guessing this is a 3.6 bug I just have to deal with until I'm ready to move to LR 4.


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## Jim Wilde (Sep 3, 2012)

You should be able to change Folder properties. Right-click on a folder, select Properties, then uncheck "Read-Only", that should work.

It sounds like two issues, one is the permissions problem which should be easy to solve, the other is the metadata conflict problem which crops up without any real understanding of what's causing it. If it carries on, I believe it might be worth trying the method outlined by Victoria in this thread.

A couple of thoughts about your workflow:

1. Have you thought about printing directly from Lightroom, rather than using PS? I don't do much printing, so what little I do is using LR, but I recall Jeff Schewe saying recently that he believes Lightroom is better for printing than PS. Worth trying maybe? It would certainly save you having to keep messing around creating temporary files out of PS.

2. The other question is about the "Auto save XMP" option which you are using. There's nothing wrong with using that option, provided you're totally clear why you are, but given it's likely involvement in at least one of your issues, it would be useful to think through your reasons to make sure they're still valid.


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## Susan Taylor Brown (Sep 3, 2012)

Good morning, Jim.

The permissions issues was something very odd yesterday. I've been working with Windows computers for many, many years. I have never felt more clunky in an OS than I have with Win 7 (I skipped Vista completely.) Right-clicking on the folder changed the properties but then it would move them right back to some files/folders being read-only. I checked for inherited properties, changed that, same thing happened again. Finally had to go into the security tab and reclaim the ownership of the folder and it populated the changes. Very bizarre. And like I said, that took care of some issues with some old files that had been migrated across multiple computers over the years.

But yes, I agree that the metadata conflict is the major one because I don't know what's causing it. I will check out the link you shared. Thanks for that. I realized last night that I didn't really have a workaround except to allow the conflict to stand because otherwise I would keep losing all my changes. This does make me consider the move to LR4. I am not opposed to upgrading, just read too many threads here where people were not happy after they switched and I adore 3.6 which never gave me any problems until the upgrade to the new system.

Re my workflow:

1. I need to read up on how to do that from LR. So far I have not been able to successfully print a 4x6 borderless print from LR but I am sure that's because I don't understand the process fully. I'll look into it. Though I do have further edits I do sometimes in PS, additional levels and then because I have the problem with the clone tool freezing in LR, I sometimes I have to go outside to fix that. 

2. Ah, this is another question I have. I do not understand what happens if I uncheck this but I was pondering giving it a try last night. If I uncheck it, where do the changes I make in LR go? What would change? What wouldn't change?

Many thanks again. You're a gem to work through this with me.


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## Susan Taylor Brown (Sep 3, 2012)

Okay, Jim, I was all set to try the trick in Victoria's thread that you mentioned. Put the photos in a quick collection, hit Cntl-S and got this error:

*One or more of these photos has been chnaged in an external application. Should Lightroom overwrite the settings on disk?*

If I say yes, I lose all the corrections, right?


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## Susan Taylor Brown (Sep 3, 2012)

Okay, I still don't understand the meta data stuff but I was finally able to print a 4x6 borderless from within LR.

In case someone else lands here when looking for the same information in layout section I had to change my dimensions to cm and then I could adjust it to 0 or no margins and then I could change it back to inches. If I tried to do it while in the inches mode it kept telling me I needed to have a margin.


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## Jim Wilde (Sep 3, 2012)

OK, this is what I don't understand, because with the workflow you've described there is no other application touching your files. So you should be OK to say "Yes", but before doing that let's make 110% certain that it is safe. Cancel the overwrite dialog, then right-click on the image and select "Go to Folder in Library", this will do exactly that (open the folder in the Library in grid view).....now check the folder name to make sure *that it isn't the name of the temporary print folder that you export to.* If everything checks out, and you are totally certain that this is an original file which is only ever used in Lightroom, then it will be OK to overwrite the settings, which will simply write back into the file the metadata already stored in the catalog. It would only be risk if something else HAS changed your file, as doing this would overwrite those changes.

Re the "Automatically write XMP" issue, I wonder why you have it checked as I guess you aren't really sure what it does. However.....ALL metadata changes you make to your images in Lightroom are automatically stored in the catalog, and by default that's the ONLY place they are stored and your image files are untouched. There is an OPTION to write MOST, but not ALL, of your metadata changes back to the original files. In the case of Raw files, because Adobe will not attempt to mess with them, this metadata is written to XMP sidecar files (same filename as the original, but with the .xmp extension). For all other file types (DNG, JPG, TIF, etc) this metadata IS written into the file header.

The writing of XMP data can be done automatically by selecting that option in the Catalog Settings (so every change you make triggers a background task to update the file), or it can be done manually by selecting an image (or images) and pressing Ctrl+S.

Why use it? Initially I think the purpose of this function was to allow you to send a copy of your edited files to someone else (client, publisher, etc) and if they had the correct software that would interpret that XMP data (such as Lightroom, Photoshop) they could see the edited and tagged file, and you wouldn't need to send a catalog, just the file (plus sidecar for Raws).

More recently, however, many people have recongnised the potential here for a "belt and braces" backup solution, i.e. in the event that your catalog is totally broken, and there is no viable backup, it would be possible (if XMP data had been written) to import the entire library into a new catalog and thus recover the majority of your historical work (edits, keywords etc). The things you would not recover, because they aren't included in the XMP write, are collection membership, virtual copies, develop history steps, flags, stacks.

With that in mind you should be able to decide for yourself if you need that option checked......many here do so, many here (including me) don't.


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## Susan Taylor Brown (Sep 3, 2012)

Hi Jim,
Okay, first, checked the files in the quick collection in explorer and they were not the exported ones. I went ahead and overwrote the changes and all my edits remained.

For a test, hoping to trigger things, I went and grabbed a few files that I knew had never been exported for printing. I made the typical edits I might in LR. No error messages. I exported them as for printing. No errors. I opened each file in PS which meant converting the color space, still no errors. I closed without saving. No errors. Opened again and saved the file. No errors. I did this with both JPEG and NEFs and I thus far today have not been able to replicate the errror. Sigh.

Second, as to why I had "Automatically write XMP" checked, I have no idea. Not a very good/smart answer. I probably read something in a post or LR book when I first installed LR. I am going to uncheck it and see if maybe that takes care of things.

Thanks again, so much, for working with me.


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