# System Requirements - a sad day



## bstevent (Oct 26, 2021)

I knew it was going to come but didn't know when. With the dropping of support for MacOs 10.14, I can no longer run the latest version of Lightroom Classic on my mid-2010 MacPro with its 48 GB of RAM, upgraded GPU, 5 internal hard drives (including 2 SSDs), eSATA interface, etc. What to do? I'm not looking forward to the painful and expensive process of getting a new computer. I suspect I'm not alone.


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## Victoria Bampton (Oct 26, 2021)

Sorry you’re facing this change  but 11 years is an eternity in the world of computing. Upgrading can be  expensive, no doubt, but there’s nothing painful about it. Even the least expensive current computer will outrun your current one by miles.


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## Paul_DS256 (Oct 26, 2021)

bstevent said:


> I suspect I'm not alone


Nope, you're not. I have a perfectly good 2009 MAC but I'm stuck on an old version of the MACOS so can only run Lightroom 6. This fortunately is only my travel laptop.

On my main Windows desktop, I went through hell last year upgrading to Windows 10 on a 2014 Dell. I suspect part of the problem is the on-board Intel disk controller which Intel has end-of-lifed.  Microsoft's evaluation tool for Windows 11 now also says my Intel CPU is not supported but not why it is not supported.

I have to disagree with @Victoria Bampton in that, even though 11 years is an eternity in computing, it is frustrating that the hardware still works, but either a vendor or software provider have dropped support for an older release, many times without an explanation. Personally, if I understood why an older OS/version needs to be dropped, it would make having to upgrade a bit more tolerable. Without that, it seems like there is a conspiracy between HW and SW vendors to EOL products to force users to upgrade. That or reduce their support coverage costs.

Full disclosure, I use a hand-me-down iPhone 6. It works, does what I need but yes, I have some apps that no longer run on it.

I don't think I'm cheap, just frugal, but am feeling I'm getting caught up in a retail practice to artificially force upgrades to HW and SW.


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## Victoria Bampton (Oct 26, 2021)

I’m still running a 2013 iMac that can’t run the latest operating system, so I understand  the frustration. Although it’s now rebooting itself multiple times a day, which is even more frustrating!!

Technology moves fast, Adobe’s killed off support for hardware that’s 9 years old, 3 years after the manufacturer killed it. If anyone’s to blame, it’s Apple.

The reality is, it wouldn’t make business sense for either Apple or Adobe to hold back progress to support old systems. If you want to stay on old systems, that’s fine, you can stay on old software too. But current software will never run well on old hardware. The cut off points seem a little artificial at times, but the gap widens.


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## Philippe Coudé du Foresto (Oct 26, 2021)

> Without that, it seems like there is a conspiracy between HW and SW vendors to EOL products to force users to upgrade.


New functionalities in a software might use some OS functionalities that are are not available on old OS running on the old hardware. That's why at some point in its evolution a sofware become incompatible with old hardware. No conspiracy, here. Just several components (HW, OS and SW) that are dependent to each other. That's how computer works.


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## PhilBurton (Oct 26, 2021)

Paul_DS256 said:


> Nope, you're not. I have a perfectly good 2009 MAC but I'm stuck on an old version of the MACOS so can only run Lightroom 6. This fortunately is only my travel laptop.
> 
> On my main Windows desktop, I went through hell last year upgrading to Windows 10 on a 2014 Dell. I suspect part of the problem is the on-board Intel disk controller which Intel has end-of-lifed.  Microsoft's evaluation tool for Windows 11 now also says my Intel CPU is not supported but not why it is not supported.
> 
> ...


@paul_256 and @bestevent

Vendors are always being forced to make these decisions.  In the case of software, features that can easily be implemented on modern systems either can't be implemented at all on older systems or run with very poor performance.  So do vendors hold back on new features?  Or do vendors leave behind systems with very old hardware and/or OS?  Consider that Apple, Microsoft and other vendors usually have dropped support for these platforms.  I'm not saying I like this trend, becuase I too still use some very old hardware, but that is the reality in this industry.

Another vendor issue is the amount of testing that has to be done for each release.  I think the general opinion is that Adobe does not do enough testing for each release, hence all the bugs.  By eliminating support for very old hardware and software, Adobe can reduce the size of the "test matrix" for a new release.

Don't forget that it's a business.


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## Paul_DS256 (Oct 26, 2021)

Philippe Coudé du Foresto said:


> New functionalities in a software might use some OS functionalities that are are not available on old OS running on the old hardware


Understood. It would be nice to understand what new feature they are using to improve their product that is not available on older systems.


PhilBurton said:


> features that can easily be implemented on modern systems either can't be implemented at all on older systems or run with very poor performance


True but there can be compromises. Look at LrC with the ability to turn on/off GPU depending on support. I appreciate vendors want to use new HW/OS features in their products but if the user does not touch that part of their app, there is no reason not to turn it off.


PhilBurton said:


> Another vendor issue is the amount of testing that has to be done for each release


I know about this. One of my Product Managers use to talk about the 'Certification Matrix of Death'. The permutations of the combination of HW and OS's and 3rd party products could be a nightmare. This can be handled by certifying a set then making statements about support related in the family of the product set. Not the best answer but it did expand our footprint.

All I'm saying is:

Declare what new HW/OS feature you are using.
Instead of wholesale de-support, a wish is to say which features are not available if you are running an older release.


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## clee01l (Oct 26, 2021)

I pulled this statistic from online:
"According to Computer Hope, you should expect to replace your computer *once every four years*. That's based on a cost analysis, plus the average time it takes to wear out the internal parts of the computer. Home Computer Help gives a slightly different estimate: Five years for desktops, and three to four for laptops." My own HW upgrade history tends to lend credence to that number. 

The Typical life of a disk drive is 5 years before failure.  Desktop components can be upgraded for a little more life before upgrade.  Apple has made it unrealistic to upgrade components in almost all of its product line. 

So if your computer is older than one purchased in 2016, you probably are in the minority.


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## PhilBurton (Oct 27, 2021)

Paul_DS256 said:


> Understood. It would be nice to understand what new feature they are using to improve their product that is not available on older systems.



Isn't that information part of every product announcement?



Paul_DS256 said:


> True but there can be compromises. Look at LrC with the ability to turn on/off GPU depending on support. I appreciate vendors want to use new HW/OS features in their products but if the user does not touch that part of their app, there is no reason not to turn it off.



A sort of special case, since GPU drivers are notoriously finicky (fiddly?) and relatively easily managed.



Paul_DS256 said:


> I know about this. One of my Product Managers use to talk about the 'Certification Matrix of Death'. The permutations of the combination of HW and OS's and 3rd party products could be a nightmare.


Never heard that expression, but I love it, since everyone was concerned about all the possible combinations of software and application.  (



Paul_DS256 said:


> This can be handled by certifying a set then making statements about support related in the family of the product set. Not the best answer but it did expand our footprint.
> 
> All I'm saying is:
> 
> ...


Does that mean multiple versions of the program files?  If so, then that creates both a testing nightmare and a support nightmare.

It's an unfortunate situation, with no easy answer and not just for computers.  We once had to discard (recycle) a perfectly good Sony tube TV, because it was incompatible with newly introduced digital signals for TV broadcasting.


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## Zenon (Oct 27, 2021)

I was there two  years ago with Catalina. Had to get a new iMac.


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## Conrad Chavez (Oct 27, 2021)

When you put together the support periods for Apple and Adobe software, some things become clear.

Today, it’s difficult to keep a Mac for more than 7 years and still install the most advanced software.  For the hardware, Apple stops providing repair services for a model after 7 years (notebook battery replacements up to 10 years). Maybe sooner if they run out of parts.

Every fall, Apple releases a new major version of macOS. Apple supports only their last three major versions, anything older no longer gets software updates. With the release of macOS 12 Monterey yesterday, macOS 10.14 Mojave is no longer supported by Apple for updates.  Adobe follows the Apple schedule for the macOS system requirements for Creative Cloud applications, so every fall, the fourth oldest macOS gets kicked off the support list at both Apple and Adobe. Next year’s victim is macOS 10.15 Catalina. Any Mac that can’t upgrade macOS past that will no longer get Apple updates and won’t be able to install next year’s Creative Cloud major versions.

The oldest Mac model supported in macOS 12 Monterey was made in late 2015. In three years, macOS Monterey will no longer be supported by Adobe or Apple, so the software support those 2015 Macs got will end at 8 years.

Adobe supports only the last two versions of Creative Cloud desktop applications such as Lightroom Classic. Each year when a new version comes out, the oldest one is removed as an install option from the Creative Cloud desktop app and is no longer supported.

So the way the math works out between Apple and Adobe is that the year Apple releases the first version of macOS that can’t be installed on your Mac, you’ve got two years before you will not be able to install the latest Adobe applications such as Lightroom Classic. After that, you can hold out one more year with the second newest version of Lightroom Classic, but after that year, the Creative Cloud app no longer makes it available to reinstall on that Mac if needed. At that point, a paying subscriber isn’t getting anything out of the Creative Cloud app installer.

Use that to anticipate and budget for the time when you will need to get a new Mac.


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## Paul_DS256 (Oct 27, 2021)

PhilBurton said:


> Isn't that information part of every product announcement?


Not that I've seen but I may have missed it in some detail somewhere


PhilBurton said:


> A sort of special case, since GPU drivers are notoriously finicky


Understood. Just using that as an example that code can be written to be adaptable to what is available.


PhilBurton said:


> Does that mean multiple versions of the program files?


No, just more complicated support statements based on the testing point in relation to the 'family' of the dependent product.


PhilBurton said:


> We once had to discard (recycle) a perfectly good Sony tube TV, because it was incompatible with newly introduced digital signals for TV broadcasting


Oh, I know. This is just not a issue with computers but most electronics.

We also had the same issue here in Canada when the cable TV provider switched from analogue to digital. They had to provide free converter boxes for those with analogue TV's.

On a related topic, the same cable provider changed the spec on home cable connections from RG-59 to RG-6. Guess what all homes here are wired with? I've had to have the cable company in multiple times to replace cable runs to RG-6.

Yes, technology moves forward but sometimes there is no consideration for the life expectancy of older technology.


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## Paul_DS256 (Oct 27, 2021)

Conrad Chavez said:


> Use that to anticipate and budget for the time when you will need to get a new Mac.


Excellent points @Conrad Chavez but personally I feel this is Apple and Adobe flexing the retail muscle; "I'm your parent; I'll tell you when you need to upgrade"

Almost makes one want to look at Linux with GIMP


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## Zenon (Oct 27, 2021)

My early 2015 MB Air worked but it was stuck during download for hours. Plugged it in for internet and was still stuck this morning. For some reason it started installing a few minutes ago. I suspect Monterey will be it's last OS. Checked the requirements and 2015 seems to be the cutoff year this time around.    

Not a bad run. I can still get 3 years of support but it will probably need replacement before that. It's for travel so I cheaped out. Is it ever sloooooow. I won't make that mistake again.


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## clee01l (Oct 27, 2021)

Paul_DS256 said:


> Excellent points @Conrad Chavez but personally I feel this is Apple and Adobe flexing the retail muscle; "I'm your parent; I'll tell you when you need to upgrade"
> 
> Almost makes one want to look at Linux with GIMP


While Linux is useful as a server OS, it hardly is acceptable running mainstream apps like those from Adobe.   FWIW, I think it was the awfulness of  GIMP that made me look seriously for Photo processing software that was not Photoshop (at $1200). 

You should be grateful that Apple, Microsoft and Adobe provide support for SOME older versions of their software.   Earlier I posted that the average HW upgrade period is 4-5 years.    Microsoft does not control the HW that their OS will run on is particularly a problem in that the permutations and combinations of HW that must be tested always causes problems and lots of bug fixes.  Apple has complete control of the HW their OS are tested and run on has fewer problems in this regard.  Since Microsoft started competing in HW with the Surface machines, the Windows Platform is starting to see the stability that Apple sees. 

Any computer hardware that is more than 3 years old is positively antediluvian.    You might take a look at the history of Apple processors.   First were the Motorola, then PowerPC, then Intel, and now Apple Silicon M1.  At some point soon MacOS will not update on any Apple but the M1.   If you look at the time it took for  these older technologies to be phased out, it should give you an idea how long it will be before your current hardware is obsolete and not supported.


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## PhilBurton (Oct 27, 2021)

clee01l said:


> While Linux is useful as a server OS, it hardly is acceptable running mainstream apps like those from Adobe.   FWIW, I think it was the awfulness of  GIMP that made me look seriously for Photo processing software that was not Photoshop (at $1200).
> 
> You should be grateful that Apple, Microsoft and Adobe provide support for SOME older versions of their software.   Earlier I posted that the average HW upgrade period is 4-5 years.    Microsoft does not control the HW that their OS will run on is particularly a problem in that the permutations and combinations of HW that must be tested always causes problems and lots of bug fixes.  Apple has complete control of the HW their OS are tested and run on has fewer problems in this regard.  Since Microsoft started competing in HW with the Surface machines, the Windows Platform is starting to see the stability that Apple sees.
> 
> Any computer hardware that is more than 3 years old is positively antediluvian.    You might take a look at the history of Apple processors.   First were the Motorola, then PowerPC, then Intel, and now Apple Silicon M1.  At some point soon MacOS will not update on any Apple but the M1.   If you look at the time it took for  these older technologies to be phased out, it should give you an idea how long it will be before your current hardware is obsolete and not supported.


I have had no problems running Windows 10 on a motherboard and CPU designed in 2012.  I routinely keep motherboards in service for six years.


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## PhilBurton (Oct 27, 2021)

Paul_DS256 said:


> Excellent points @Conrad Chavez but personally I feel this is Apple and Adobe flexing the retail muscle; "I'm your parent; I'll tell you when you need to upgrade"
> 
> Almost makes one want to look at Linux with GIMP


I think that Apple, Adobe, and all the other companies in this industry are trying to leverage the best available technology for competitive advantage.  

As someone who has worked for software vendors, I can say that sometimes the "end of life" discussion revolves around what percentage of the installed base is still on very old software and hardware.  It's a tradeoff.  Budgets are always limited, and money spent to support "very old system" customers is not available to spend on current or recent customers.

That is the (harsh) reality, even for a company as large and profitable as Microsoft.

Linux, for all its technical benefits, has simply not had much traction as a desktop operating system, outside of niche communities.


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## Paul_DS256 (Oct 27, 2021)

PhilBurton said:


> I think that Apple, Adobe, and all the other companies in this industry are trying to leverage the best available technology for competitive advantage.


'Competitive advantage' was something I had not considered while feeling sorry for myself having to upgrade HW that still works


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## prbimages (Oct 28, 2021)

Just an observation, but my older mid-range PC from 2013 runs the latest Windows 10 just fine. Lightroom 4.4 and Lightroom Classic 10.4 both run on it. Pretty slow, but they do run.


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## aa_online (Oct 29, 2021)

bstevent said:


> I knew it was going to come but didn't know when. With the dropping of support for MacOs 10.14, I can no longer run the latest version of Lightroom Classic on my mid-2010 MacPro with its 48 GB of RAM, upgraded GPU, 5 internal hard drives (including 2 SSDs), eSATA interface, etc. What to do? I'm not looking forward to the painful and expensive process of getting a new computer. I suspect I'm not alone.


Hello, 2009 Mac pro user here.

Two things: the mac OS update, and your intel chipset.  

You can bypass the mojave/catalina restriction by using dosdude mohave patch.  It allows Mojave/catalina updates on unsupported macs. 
http://dosdude1.com/software.htmlWhen Apple moved from el captain to mohave, then to catalina, the assumption was that everyone was working off SSDs, not spinning platters.  So read Dosdude's suggestions how to handle that.  Apple changed their filesystem to work more efficiently with SSDs.  in english that means a headache for those of us who don't drop $5K a year on new computers. 

The 2nd part is the chipset. My 2009 doesn't support this on chip instruction sets called SSE 4.2. I think it uses 4.1.  Software like Capture One started requiring this in 2020, as did Photoshop and lightroom 10 I believe. 
These were the new minimum, intel  requirements for Adobe 2020 products:
"Intel processor with 64-bit support; 2 GHz or faster processor with SSE 4.2 or later"

I think your 2010 does support that, so you may just need DosDude to hack your machine to catalina and it should buy you some time. 

For others erasing this, here are some work arounds the SSE4.2.. I may try this with my 2009 mac pro:

https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...emulation-to-enable-amd-metal-driver.2206682/
In a nutshell this patch:
 "MouSSE traps illegal instructions in both privileged (kernel) mode and unprivileged (user) mode, and emulates the POPCNT, PCMPGTQ, and CRC32 instructions. As of this writing, PCMPGTQ and POPCNT are the only problematic instructions used in the AMD drivers. (And, apparently, the only two currently used in World of Warcraft.)
MouSSE is fully reentrant, and automatically runs on all CPUs/cores/threads."

The good news is that these new M1 pro and Max chipsets.. if they wander into  mac mini pro or max soon, this would be and ideal replacement . the current M1 mini is no slouch,  with an even better HDMI 2.0 vs the new mac pro HDMI 1.4.  However since I'm video editing curious, having video encoders/decoders in chip seems invaluable. 

I hope this helps you squeeze another year out of your mac pro.  however realize.. we are really pushing these machines... I already swiped out a faulty ram riser on mine.  I also use the windows boot for, uhm... "productivity apps" like battlefield! .  Great machine, but the writing is on the wall, and the ceiling.. and the floor!


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## aa_online (Oct 29, 2021)

clee01l said:


> I pulled this statistic from online:
> "According to Computer Hope, you should expect to replace your computer *once every four years*. That's based on a cost analysis, plus the average time it takes to wear out the internal parts of the computer. Home Computer Help gives a slightly different estimate: Five years for desktops, and three to four for laptops." My own HW upgrade history tends to lend credence to that number.
> 
> The Typical life of a disk drive is 5 years before failure.  Desktop components can be upgraded for a little more life before upgrade.  Apple has made it unrealistic to upgrade components in almost all of its product line.
> ...


...now that computers are all SOC solid state.. especially on the mac side...  this is a reality.  Apple does offer a trade in if its within the year or two. I heard someone that got an M1 laptop for $1200 traded it in to apple for the new M1 pro and he got over $800 for it!! Thats how you have to think about it these days.  its a long term lease....  $400/yr to "lease" a state  of the art laptop? basically that's what it is.


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## aa_online (Oct 29, 2021)

Paul_DS256 said:


> 'Competitive advantage' was something I had not considered while feeling sorry for myself having to upgrade HW that still works


if you are on the apple end.. this is a different mindset.  the intel to M1 transition, then the apple silicon maturity, you may want to ride in 1-2 year old hardware for the new one.  Apple is pretty generous in that time span. Also, these computers.. EVERYTHING is on the silicon .. SSD, Ram....   these are basically smart phone.  Remember how folks lamented  decade ago that iPhones didn't have upgradable memory?  Today you trade in a 1 to 2 year old iPhone!


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