# Lightroom and Bridge



## AlisonTB (Dec 3, 2014)

Hi-

I have a specific need for the metadata in my images to  be the exact same across software viewers. I start in by uploading into Lightroom, but often look at the images in Bridge, and in the Smug Mug site attached using the plug in. Often the metadata is different; especially with Smug Mug (I've been working with them). I have a specific example of an image with different keyword metadata showing in Lightroom and Bridge, with Bridge showing more. Can you help?

Thanks

A


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## clee01l (Dec 3, 2014)

How are you looking at the metadata keywords in  LR to determine that it is different from Bridge?


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## AlisonTB (Dec 4, 2014)

I look both at the keyword box and also the list with the little check marks.


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## Victoria Bampton (Dec 4, 2014)

Which program are you using to add the metadata?


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## clee01l (Dec 4, 2014)

I don't know if this helps, but Lightroom displays the metadata in the catalog.  Bridge will display any metadata in the file and perhaps in the sidecar xmp if there is one. 
If you add metadata in Bridge, it won't be reflected in LR until you sync the metadata into the catalog. 

If you export a derivative file from LR, AND include ALL metadata in the Export, the exported file should then show exactly the same metadata in Bridge or any other app capable of viewing the EXIF in the file header.


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## AlisonTB (Dec 4, 2014)

clee01l said:


> I don't know if this helps, but Lightroom displays the metadata in the catalog.  Bridge will display any metadata in the file and perhaps in the sidecar xmp if there is one.
> If you add metadata in Bridge, it won't be reflected in LR until you sync the metadata into the catalog.
> 
> If you export a derivative file from LR, AND include ALL metadata in the Export, the exported file should then show exactly the same metadata in Bridge or any other app capable of viewing the EXIF in the file header.




that does help explain things, but does not help my problem. If I upload an image to LR and store it on a server, then work with the keywords etc., in LR, these changes are not necessarily made permanently to the image? So when my coworker looks at the image on the server using Bridge, my LR work is not reflected in the metadata? If this is true, and I need the metadata to match exactly, do I need to cleanse the images in Bridge before uploading and working with them in LR? And the same with Smug Mug; if I change things in LR they are not necessarily reflected in what Smug Mug shows?
This is very important for me to understand, thanks.


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## clee01l (Dec 5, 2014)

I think that all you need to do is turn on the setting to auto sync metadata in the Catalog preferences.  LR will create an XMP sidecar file with the metadata and keep it up to date.  Bridge could pick it up the RAW file and the sidecar.  If you are working the other way, the metadata gets added to the image file/sidecar and the catalog is out of date. A Manual sync in LR will update the catalog with the contents on the file.   There is a Metadata Status field in the Metadata panel that should want you when there are conflicts and give you the option to remedy this.


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## AlisonTB (Dec 5, 2014)

I have the "automatically write changes into XMP" set properly in the catalog settings. No metadata is added in Bridge, on this project. Does LR create a new sidecar, making two that Bridge can see?
How do I do a manual sync of metadata?
Where is the "metadata status field in the metadata panel? I don't see it. 

Which programs have priority over which here? If I change keywords in LR, then someone looks at it in Bridge, then I look at it again in LR, is there a metadata change depending on the xmp sidecars?
I aso have a problem with Smug Mug in this regard, plus a persistent problem with duplicates. If these issues are too complex for the forum, is there someone in San Francisco that can help advise me, on site, or something?

Thanks again for your help

A


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## clee01l (Dec 5, 2014)

Here is a screen shot of the top of the Metadata panel that shows the field "Metadata Status" 

I did the following test:


Added a unique keyword to the image in LR.
No XMP sidecar is created until I "Save the Metadata to File"
Open the NEF in Bridge.
Bridge also automatically reads the XMP file and shows the Keywords added by LR.
I add a unique kw in Bridge and do nothing else. Bridges updates the XMP  with the kw.
However, there are two keyword fields in the XMP one called "Subject" and the other called "hierarchicalSubject".  Bridge only updates the "hierarchicalSubject".  This may be a bug or there may be a way to update both that I am not aware of.
When the xmp file is out of sync with the LR catalog you get the warning "Changed On Disk" and when clicked, the dialog box to update the catalog WITH the disk or vice versa.







Metadata gets changed on the on the XMP file either by LR or Bridge.  The LR catalog gets changed ONLY when you resync with the XMPfile on the disk. 

If no kw are being changed in Bridge, then the XMPfile will not have any keywords changed.

If you need to manually sync the metadata it is a menu choice {Metadata}{Save the Metadata to File}

SmugMug is probably a different issue and will need more information.  Let's resolve the Bridge/LF keywords to your satisfaction first.


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## AlisonTB (Dec 5, 2014)

wow thanks for the time you took with this Cletus! But I don't understand why having the "automatically save metadata to file" preference does not take care of the problem. I activated the "metadata/save metadata to file" as you suggested, and the system is very busy doing it. Do I have to take this action every time I add images in LR? As I said, we do not intend to enter changes in Bridge; it's simply a viewing tool.


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## Victoria Bampton (Dec 6, 2014)

You're right, automatically write xmp should do it automatically, so it'll be interesting to know whether this actually solves it.


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## AlisonTB (Dec 8, 2014)

It's been set correctly the whole time, so I doubt it'll change anything to re-activate it now.... ? Basically I need to know why old, incorrect (that is, deleted or changed) metadata reappears. My co-worker thinks its me, but I KNOW I've deleted things that have re-appeared. Just can't document it yet, but am working on doing that now. Any ideas at all about how old metadata would re-appear? Overwrite with past metadata or something?


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## Victoria Bampton (Dec 8, 2014)

No logical reason I can think of, unless you're reading the metadata from the files.  If you can document the steps, we'll try to reproduce it for you.


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## AlisonTB (Dec 9, 2014)

How do you read the metadata from the files? If I upload in LR, make changes that are theoretically written into the XMP files with the lightroom setting, and my coworker looks at the file in Bridge, does that 'read the matadata from the files' and somehow rearrange them?


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## clee01l (Dec 9, 2014)

AlisonTB said:


> How do you read the metadata from the files? If I upload in LR, make changes that are theoretically written into the XMP files with the lightroom setting, and my coworker looks at the file in Bridge, does that 'read the matadata from the files' and somehow rearrange them?


When you open Bridge, it reads the RAW file and raw XMP and displays the contents in the metadata panel.  The metadata panel is editable so if your co worker makes any change there, it is reflected in the XMP file. There is no Save. It is automatically written to the XMP


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## Denis de Gannes (Dec 9, 2014)

Just my thoughts, Lightroom by default is reading and writing to the Catalog file. As far as Lightroom is concerned the info is in the Catalog. Lightroom can also write info to an xmp file that is useful to ACR Plugin in Photoshop.
Bridge / ACR Plugin on the other hand *cannot read or write* to the Lightroom Catalog file it stores info to the file via the .xmp file or the the header of dng, tiff or jpeg files.
This is why when you make changes in ACR it will not update the Lightroom Catalog data automatically and a warning dialog will be generated when you are working with the file in Lightroom.  Quite logical to my mind.
(p.s. Just be aware if you choose to save the info from the file it is possible you may loose some of your earlier work done in Lightroom.)
The Lightroom Catalog File is proprietary to Lightroom.


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## AlisonTB (Dec 9, 2014)

thanks! Here's another way of stating my problem. Bridge sees more metadata (keywords, specifically) than Lightroom does. why? How exactly can I make them see the exact same thing?


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## clee01l (Dec 9, 2014)

AlisonTB said:


> thanks! Here's another way of stating my problem. Bridge sees more metadata (keywords, specifically) than Lightroom does. why? How exactly can I make them see the exact same thing?


Can you post one of these image files and it XMP sidecar to a public download site so that I might see in my LR and Bridge what you are seeing. When you do this can you supply examples of Keywords that show up in Bridge but not in LR?

Also on the Keywording panel which choice are you using from the dropDownListBox?  (Enter Keywords, Keywords & Containing Keywords, Will Export)


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## Denis de Gannes (Dec 9, 2014)

clee01l said:


> Can you post one of these image files and it XMP sidecar to a public download site so that I might see in my LR and Bridge what you are seeing. When you do this can you supply examples of Keywords that show up in Bridge but not in LR?
> 
> Also on the Keywording panel which choice are you using from the dropDownListBox?  (Enter Keywords, Keywords & Containing Keywords, Will Export)



Metadata that is present, when you import a file into Lightroom, should show up in Lightroom because it will be captured as part of the import process.

Info that is added to the .xmp file subsequently, outside of Lightroom, will not get automatically added to the Lightroom Catalog, you will have to do that in Lightroom using the "read metadata from file" function in the Library Module. See screen capture.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Here again be aware that when you do this there is the possibility that there may be info there that can replace prior work you may have done in Lightroom. e.g. edits that may have ben done using ACR.


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## clee01l (Dec 9, 2014)

Denis, 
It is my understanding that the keywords are being added only in LR then passed to another person for review in Bridge.  Additions to the metadata are not supposed to be happening in Bridge.  Yet Bridge shows additional Keywords that LR does not. 

This is why I would like to see an image file and XMP file that shows this keyword difference.


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## Denis de Gannes (Dec 10, 2014)

Maybe Bridge is seeing keywords added by another program other than Lightroom?

The point I was also trying to emphasize is the fact that Lightroom by default only reads and writes from the Catalog file. If info is not specifically imported/copied into the Catalog file Lightroom will not recognize it.

This is the main reason I keep my workflow simple sweet, LR is my raw processing application so I rely totally on my LR Catalog and I have no use for Bridge, ACR, DNG, or XMP


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## AlisonTB (Dec 10, 2014)

How do I imbed an image into this stream? I have one example to show you. Also, I can send good examples via Hightail, if you give me an email address.


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## clee01l (Dec 10, 2014)

AlisonTB said:


> How do I imbed an image into this stream? I have one example to show you. Also, I can send good examples via Hightail, if you give me an email address.


In a reply to this stream click on the icon in the menu bar:





Click on my name in the profile section of this post to send me a PM with the link to the file.


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## AlisonTB (Dec 10, 2014)

*for cletus*


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## AlisonTB (Dec 10, 2014)

Hi-
I sent you the example. In the meantime I've been doing the second "save metadata to file" function, after a thorough review of the whole batch of images. Now I'll make a smart preview catalog, and have my co-worker look for more errors, which I'll teach with extreme care. Thanks for your help!


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## AlisonTB (Dec 3, 2014)

Hi-

I have a specific need for the metadata in my images to  be the exact same across software viewers. I start in by uploading into Lightroom, but often look at the images in Bridge, and in the Smug Mug site attached using the plug in. Often the metadata is different; especially with Smug Mug (I've been working with them). I have a specific example of an image with different keyword metadata showing in Lightroom and Bridge, with Bridge showing more. Can you help?

Thanks

A


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## Victoria Bampton (Dec 10, 2014)

In the Keywording panel, change the pop-up to Keywords & Containing Keywords and see if some appear.  I think some are parent keywords and others are Synonyms.

I think this is down to the checkboxes in the Edit Keyword dialog.


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## clee01l (Dec 10, 2014)

Victoria Bampton said:


> In the Keywording panel, change the pop-up to Keywords & Containing Keywords and see if some appear.  I think some are parent keywords and others are Synonyms.
> 
> I think this is down to the checkboxes in the Edit Keyword dialog.


I'm thinking the same thing.  I mentioned this earlier in a previous post.  I think it might have gotten overlooked in the confusion.


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## clee01l (Dec 10, 2014)

As for SmugMug, the issue may also be related to the checkboxes in the Edit Keyword dialog. In the Keywording panel, DropDownListBox that contains "Keywords & Containing Keywords" Also contains a "Will Export".  Since the image file sent to SmugMug is a derivative export, only those keywords that are included on export will be sent to SmugMug.


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## AlisonTB (Dec 10, 2014)

Right. I had "enter keywords" chosen. I've changed it now. But, would that effect being able to see removed keywords? Also, what does the "will export" choice do, and how does it affect Smug Mug?

Also, I'm on the help desk with Smug Mug and they say I need to right click on an image and mark it for republishing each time I make a metadata change. I assumed the program knew when to republish an image, since it often shows images that  need to be republished. ??


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## clee01l (Dec 10, 2014)

Here is the Keyword Creation Dialog:




:
And this how the three choices appear in  the Keyboarding panel:





The keywords that being with the character "@" had the checkbox labeled "Include on Export" unchecked. The next screen shot is the same panel with "Will Export" the choice:





And the final view is all  of the keywords, parent keywords that have "Include on Export" checked.  In the example here, "Tricolored Heron" is the keyword and "Egretta tricolor" is its synonym. The Checkbox for "Include Synonyms" was checked for "Tricolored Heron".  





In the last example, "Genre" is the parent for "Nature" which is parent to "Avian" which is the parent of "Tricolored Heron".


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## AlisonTB (Dec 11, 2014)

thanks! I've not noticed those icons in my system before, and my options are set correctly in the 'edit keyword' panel… so I guess thats not the problem.


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## clee01l (Dec 11, 2014)

AlisonTB said:


> Hi-
> I sent you the example. In the meantime I've been doing the second "save metadata to file" function, after a thorough review of the whole batch of images. Now I'll make a smart preview catalog, and have my co-worker look for more errors, which I'll teach with extreme care. Thanks for your help!


I've received neither PM or email with a link to the example files.  Want to try again?


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## AlisonTB (Dec 12, 2014)

I can see the example in this forum sequence… you can't?


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## clee01l (Dec 12, 2014)

Allison, I was wanting you to send me a RAW file and an XMP file  through one of the file sharing services. That way I can import it into my LR and open it with my Bridge to see the Keyword difference between the two  (or not).   Once we understand what is going on between your LR and your Bridge, we can begin to investigate the SmugMug keyword problem.   Lightroom and Bridge are looking at the same RAW file and XMPfile.  The file sent to SmugMug is a different file - a derivative of the original.  To understand that problem, I;ll need to understand what is being sent to SmugMug and what SmugMug does to the file that it receives wrt keywords.


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## AlisonTB (Dec 12, 2014)

Ok, I can send you something through Hightail, but what email address do I use? I did the"save metadata to file" redundant action, so it may take some time to find a new example (Hopefully!!).


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## clee01l (Dec 12, 2014)

You can email me through the link on my profile name.


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## AlisonTB (Dec 19, 2014)

Hi Cletus:

Another question. After I crop an image in Lightroom, my coworker wants to see the original uncropped version in Bridge. How can she see the uncropped version?

Thanks

A


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## clee01l (Dec 20, 2014)

AlisonTB said:


> Hi Cletus:
> 
> Another question. After I crop an image in Lightroom, my coworker wants to see the original uncropped version in Bridge. How can she see the uncropped version?
> 
> ...


 I'm not a Bridge person.  But here's what works for me.   First the metadata needs to be saved to the XMP sidecar file.  Bridge will open the RAW file (NEF/CR2) with the LR adjustments applied from the XMP sidecar file. Next in Bridge, Choose "Open with Camera RAW" {Cmd/Cntl}{R}.  In Camera Raw click on the Crop Tool {C} to open the crop window.  If the co-worker makes changes to the crop they will replace those made in LR. 

If you do not send the RAW file and XMP file to Bridge but instead send a derivative (TIFF/PSD/JPEG)  all of the changes will be applied in the derivative and this includes the crop.  Bridge will not be able to see a Pre-crop version.


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## AlisonTB (Dec 24, 2014)

Thanks Cletus. I had found that crop tool in Camera Raw, but wondered it PS could do it alone. Guess not! Also I did not realize TIFF was a derivative file format. I thought it was an older version of RAW/DNG. Good to know! Also, I'm still looking for another example of the metadata issues we were having; hopefully you won't hear from me again, which would mean the problem went away. My theory is the redundant 'save metadata to file" function was the ticket. I've also given up on Smug Mug after two years of consistent issues with duplicates and incorrect metadata. I'm considering PhotoShelter and Zen Folio but would love your advice on this. We need a fluid system of adding/deleting metadata as we add important keywords to the photos on a constant basis.


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## AlisonTB (Dec 29, 2014)

One last thing; is Camera Raw able to see the image before processing adjustments like tone, sharpening, etc?


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