# Develop Presets return to "neutral" before taking on values of next preset



## Doug B (Feb 5, 2011)

I've submitted this to the proper, official channel:



> *******Enhancement / FMR*********
> Brief title for your desired feature:
> 
> "Develop presets, reset to neutral on advance."
> ...



While I realize that one can click "reset", or do a CMD+Z or even alt+cmd+z for multiple undo's, that become mighty tedious after just a short while. I'll also admit that at times the effect of taking on multiple preset attributions sometimes takes on a desirable effect, but I'd rather stick with a time saver than that. 

Has this ever been discussed ?

Doug


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## Mark Sirota (Feb 6, 2011)

This is very much NOT how I would like it to work!  I don't want the preset to change from the initial import stage.  I want the preset to change only what I've asked it to change, and nothing more.

I have several presets that adjust only a small number of sliders -- one that adjusts the sharpness sliders for portraits, one that adjusts the split toning sliders for sunsets, etc.  These are small effects that are added on top of other image-specific processing.

I suppose a feature could be developed where a preset could include a "reset".  But I certainly wouldn't want the global behavior to work as you describe.


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## Doug B (Feb 6, 2011)

I think you've misunderstood. Or I'm totally misunderstanding you...  You say that you want the preset to change only what you've asked it to, and I don't see how this is any different from what I've said already. Let me try and be more clear:

1. We are at the initial import stage of the photo ready to develop

2. We proceed to choose an custom/user preset as a baseline *or leave as is, w/e*

So after you've chosen something from the presets that looks ok, you decide to change your mind and look for another one. But rather than do a cmd+z in order to get back to the "initial import stage" settings (which is all neutral) it would be nice to simply be able to just pick another custom/user preset without having to bother with the cmd+z shortcut. This effectively as you've stated, only changes what you wanted to be changed, because it is only changing those values from which you started with (initial import stage settings).   I hope that makes sense! 

Otherwise, what happens is,  if you keep on changing custom/user presets without undoing the initial one, you'll wind up with something TOTALLY different [when you do actually pick one] from what that specific custom/user preset was meant to look like in the first place! 

There are certain kinds of presets which remain present when switching to another, while others simply take on the values of the new preset and that preset only.  As an example, I just took an imported photo and applied a preset named "retro" to it. That applied split toning values of 63/48 (highlights) and 247/36 respectively, with a balance of +36.  

I then applied a preset called "B&W Yellow filter". What happened was that the split toning values remained, instead of taking them back to the default zero. The B&W Yellow filter does not have split toning values, yet they remained. This happens a lot, in many different scenarios, and I find it counter productive. Again, while it might yield pleasing results from time to time, I just find this to be inconsistent.


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## Mark Sirota (Feb 6, 2011)

In that case, the second preset should be built to turn off the Split Toning panel switch, and/or to reset the Split Toning controls to zero.

I think you're just using presets in a completely different way than I am, and so you're not understanding what I'm saying.  I don't use presets for a "look".  I use them to batch up a set of related controls to save me time.

If you want presets to have a "look", then those presets should reset any sliders that affect the look.  It's an issue of the way the preset is built, not the way the preset mechanism works.


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## clee01l (Feb 6, 2011)

Doug, A quick look at the ASCII text file used for any develop preset  (*.lrtemplate) will show you which adjustments will be applied. If an adjustment is not included in the preset, (like Split-Toning), then the preset will not alter the existing adjustment value of that type on the image.  What you may need to do is tweak your presets so that every adjustment value is included in the preset .  If every adjustment is included in the preset and every adjustment not needing to change is returned to the neutral position, then Presets will behave just as you wish.  If you decide to tweak your develop templates, you will need to export the built in LR Presets templates and reimport the altered template to make it one of your own.


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## MoreThanWords (Feb 6, 2011)

That's really good advice, Cletus. 
I was going to offer a somewhat simpler but less elegant solution, and that would be to include a 'general zeroed' preset (one that resets your image to the default state at import) in every preset folder that you have. That way, it would just be a matter of clicking the reset-preset first and then whatever other preset you might want. By puttin one reset preset in every folder, you'd save some extra time.


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## Mark Sirota (Feb 7, 2011)

Not a bad idea, but General-Zeroed isn't the same as the import state, at least for raw files.  You could make a preset that matched Lightroom's defaults for raw files and put it in every preset folder, though.

Note that preset names cannot be duplicated, even if they're in different folders.  So you'll need slightly different names for each.  (I haven't tested that recently; I'm sure it was true in 2.x.)


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## clee01l (Feb 7, 2011)

Now, I'm not sure I am being understood or for certain that I understand the OP's goal. 
As I understand the OP's goal is to apply a preset that applies certain adjustment sliders and all other adjustment sliders are set to the neutral position.  To achieve this you need a preset that not only adjusts the sliders that you want to give action to, but also resets the other sliders to the neutral position. 

As Mark has pointed out, the import state IS a set of applied development settings and not necessarily the neutral state for each slider, so if the goal is to return the adjustment sliders to the the import state, except for those needing to be acted upon by the develop preset, then the preset must be built to return all adjustment sliders to the import state instead of the neutral state. 

Also Mark mentioned that preset names must be unique in LT (Preset Names are actually the Title field in the lrtemplate XML file.) while this is true, it is easy to create a copy and provide a unique Title.  The built-in LR preset "General - Zeroed" can be reimported in the user folder as "0.01 General - Zeroed" (My personal naming convention begins with a sequence number to aid in sorting to keep Families of presets together. )


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## Doug B (Feb 7, 2011)

I've been trying to wrap my head around all of the things you guys have come up with, and for the most part feel like the matter has been over complicated, and unnecessarily so.  That is until Cletus (or should I say Mark?)  said this: 



> As Mark has pointed out, the import state IS a set of applied  development settings and not necessarily the neutral state for each  slider, so if the goal is to return the adjustment sliders to the the  import state, except for those needing to be acted upon by the develop  preset, then the preset must be built to return all adjustment sliders  to the import state instead of the neutral state.


BINGO! That's pretty much all I've been getting at. Why exactly, would you not be using a develop preset to achieve the look which you have set it to look like in the first place ? Set aside batch processing, and look at development from a photo to photo standpoint.. Each time you begin developing, you begin from where ? The starting point. So, when you actually create a develop preset, you are creating it from THAT POINT. Therefore, you'd expect each preset to only encapsulate those slider values it was created with from the start. 

I always assumed that no matter the camera type, RAW type etc.. The natural Import state was to be considered as "neutral", a starting point if you will. If you look at it that way, as I do, then it would only be natural to figure that the starting point should be the first place we find our selves in before we actually apply any filters or develop settings. 

While I have made a few presets for myself, I've mostly been relying on downloaded preset packs. I use these presets to achieve a certain baseline look and develop further from there. Unless of course I have a vision in my head of what the photo should look like without having to resort to parsing through presets. That said, if I'm starting from what we are now calling the "import state", then each time I apply an preset (starting from the import state not going from preset to preset without resetting) it should only include those values which it was created with, right?

But the point I've been trying to make here, is that if you do NOT reset back to the "import state" after choosing one preset and then just move on to the next, it is more than likely that some of the values from the previous preset will carry on to the next, which in essence makes it different from what it would have been if you had started from the import state to begin with. 

The other point I was trying to make is that I'd rather not have to cmd+z or hit reset each time I want to change presets. And while it is easy enough to create yet another preset which will bring me back to the "import state", I just don't see the point in that, as it's no different from having to hit reset or cmd+z. Could be worse actually, depending upon how many presets are in that particular preset folder. Yeah, I could name it so that it goes on the top or bottom, but that's still tedious. 

@ Mark: 





> I think you're just using presets in a completely different way than I  am, and so you're not understanding what I'm saying.  I don't use  presets for a "look".  I use them to batch up a set of related controls  to save me time.


How we choose to use presets is completely irrelevant to the issue. You've simply gotten used to how things are, and have adapted to them. 



> If you want presets to have a "look", then those presets should reset  any sliders that affect the look.  It's an issue of the way the preset  is built, not the way the preset mechanism works.


 Well unfortunately for me I guess, I'm not the one who built most of the presets I'm using, but I don't think I should be penalized for that. IMO it should be standard that when selecting one preset to the next, the simple action of changing them should somehow bring all the sliders back to the "Import state" before actually applying the next set of slider values.

 After all, I really don't think that this would affect how you work in terms of choosing a specific preset to batch develop a set of photos. If I'm missing something, please let me know. And try to be specific and tell me like I'm dumb I suppose, because I'm not seeing the downside to what I'm proposing. 

Doug


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## Mark Sirota (Feb 7, 2011)

Cletus, the OP specifically defined "neutral" as the initial import stage in the first post.  That's where I got the definition from.  I understand the confusion, though!


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## MarkNicholas (Feb 7, 2011)

Doug,

I think the difficulty you are having is due to your perception that for each RAW photo there is some magical neutral or original "import state". There isn't one. When you import a RAW photo into Lightroom, some develop settings are always applied. These settings are either the default Lightroom settings or some other settings which you have made as default. So you never start off with neutral settings... only the RAW data with "your" chosen settings applied.

For example there is no neutral value for sharpening. You either apply no sharpening or sharpening to somewhere within the range of the sliders. LR will only apply what you ask it to apply. There is no neutral or original value. 

Therefore, for your query on pre-sets, you will still need to decide which develop settings you want to be applied to your RAW photo. Pre-sets are only a "short-cut" tool to help in getting there. You may be able to do this with a single pre-set that changes all develop settings or a number of presets that changes certain discrete settings.


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## clee01l (Feb 7, 2011)

Doug, I think you need to pay attention to the Develop history panel.  Each time you apply a preset, it gets entered as an entry in the History panel.  As has been discussed before. A preset is an incomplete set of adjustments that gets applied. A set of instructions to the LR engine to move one or more sliders to a certain position and filter the data correspondingly. The built in LR presets and the off the shelf presets that you buy or D/L for free are meant to be applied once to achieve a look and no other presets are expected .  This does not mean that you can't tweak the adjustment sliders after the preset has done its job, but generally Presets to achieve a "Look" are not designed to be used in conjunction with other presets to achieve a different "Look" or you will get unexpected results.   Mark is using LR Presets as they were designed to be used.  You are trying to use Presets in a way that the developers did not intend.   When you Press an "A" on the computer keyboard you get an"A" because this is the way the developers designed the action. You can't keep pressing the "A" and expect "Ø" because that is not how the keyboard was designed.  LR is no different. The developers built LR with certain rules.  It is understandable that a new user might not know what those rules are, but it is not reasonable to expect those rules to be different.


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## Mark Sirota (Feb 7, 2011)

Doug B said:


> Each time you begin developing, you begin from where ? The starting point. So, when you actually create a develop preset, you are creating it from THAT POINT. Therefore, you'd expect each preset to only encapsulate those slider values it was created with from the start.



That's assuming that you only apply presets as the first step.  What if you adjust exposure, blacks, and contrast, and then want to apply a Split Toning preset?  Should it reset the exposure, blacks, and contrast sliders to the default?



> While I have made a few presets for myself, I've mostly been relying on downloaded preset packs.


Right.  So your workflow is to use a variety of presets for a variety of "looks".  But my point is, that's not the only use of presets.  I never do that.



> ... it should only include those values which it was created with, right?


That's exactly the point!  All presets only include those values with which they were created.  When you create a preset, you can choose which controls will be included in the preset.  If you want your presets to include everything, then include everything.  If the ones you downloaded don't do that, edit them!  (Or create a new preset based on them.)  The creator of the preset didn't know what you wanted...   There's no need to change Lightroom to get what you're asking for -- all you need to do is create your presets to do what you want them to do.



> @ Mark: How we choose to use presets is completely irrelevant to the issue. You've simply gotten used to how things are, and have adapted to them.
> ...
> If I'm missing something, please let me know. And try to be specific and  tell me like I'm dumb I suppose, because I'm not seeing the downside to  what I'm proposing.


The way it is, we can both be happy.  If Lightroom were changed to do what you want, then only one of us would be happy.


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## Doug B (Feb 7, 2011)

I guess we are all going to have to agree to disagree (with me, since I'm out numbered here). I thought I was clear, and thought I was making sense (at least to myself), but it seems there's still some confusion (apparently, on my part... again, but I refuse to go down like that !  )  I do still think that you guys are not totally getting me here, or are just very set in the ways in which LR has made you as such. I'll try this one more time, and if a light does not go on then I'll just leave it alone. 





MarkNicholas said:


> Doug,
> 
> I think the difficulty you are having is due to your perception that for each RAW photo there is some magical neutral or original "import state". There isn't one.



But um, there is actually. It's not magical, and I agree, it's not really "neutral" either. What it is however, is where each slider resides, that represents the "base" or "foundation". 



> When you import a RAW photo into Lightroom, some develop settings are always applied. These settings are either the default Lightroom settings or some other settings which you have made as default. So you never start off with neutral settings... only the RAW data with "your" chosen settings applied.


 Sure, but this goes for every piece of RAW editing software out there. The simple fact is, that these programs still need a point in which to start, that represents an image as close to just the RAW data as possible. In LR, these values are usually represented with a value of "0" or "50", because those are the values which the devs thought best represented RAW data. 



> For example there is no neutral value for sharpening. You either apply no sharpening or sharpening to somewhere within the range of the sliders. LR will only apply what you ask it to apply. There is no neutral or original value.


 Sharpening is a different story, of course there is no neutral. That would be ridiculous. But in this case, a value of "25" does apply, because that is the default for where it starts. 



> Therefore, for your query on pre-sets, you will still need to decide which develop settings you want to be applied to your RAW photo. Pre-sets are only a "short-cut" tool to help in getting there. You may be able to do this with a single pre-set that changes all develop settings or a number of presets that changes certain discrete settings.


I understand that. But how exactly would one know what kind of preset is going to either change all develop settings or certain discrete settings ? I don't think there's a rule book for that kind of thing. 



clee01l said:


> Doug, I think you need to pay attention to the Develop history panel.  Each time you apply a preset, it gets entered as an entry in the History panel.


  Ok.. With you so far. But I knew that, and don't really see how that has a bearing on anything. 



> As has been discussed before. A preset is an incomplete set of adjustments that gets applied.


Why exactly do you think that it is incomplete ? One could very easily use a preset and be done. Granted, it's not generally something that happens because being human means we're always curious to strive further, but it is not inconceivable to find something, be satisfied with it and leave it alone. 



> The built in LR presets and the off the shelf presets that you buy or D/L for free are meant to be applied once to achieve a look and no other presets are expected


 Right ! Totally with you there. I've NEVER implied that they were meant to do anything else.  And this is where the problems start. So I apply a preset right, but I don't like it for that particular photo so.. I choose a different preset. 




> This does not mean that you can't tweak the adjustment sliders after the preset has done its job, but generally Presets to achieve a "Look" are not designed to be used in conjunction with other presets to achieve a different "Look" or you will get unexpected results.


 Again, I'm with you and that's exactly what I've been saying all along. It's why I've been insinuating that in order for this NOT to happen, there would have to be a way for the values to return to the state they were initially in. The "import stage" values. Again, because those values truly are the closest thing to what the RAW data looks like before any of the develop values are even touched. Unless of course like you've said, you set these values to be different from the native LR ones, upon import. 




> Mark is using LR Presets as they were designed to be used.  You are trying to use Presets in a way that the developers did not intend.


  That doesn't make any sense to me. How could I possibly do something that the app wasn't programmed to do? That seems like a remarkable achievement to me! If the devs didn't intend on someone doing something, then wouldn't they have implemented something to actually prevent said usage? That's why I contest, that this is either an oversight or a bug. I know you'd argue this with me to the death, but it would be futile IMO, since neither of us can see the others logic. 



> When you Press an "A" on the computer keyboard you get an"A" because this is the way the developers designed the action. You can't keep pressing the "A" and expect "Ø" because that is not how the keyboard was designed.


I'm sorry but, this is a terrible analogy IMO. Obviously it's not that I don't understand what you're getting at, I just don't agree that the engineers had intended for presets to be used in the very specific manner that you've stated. 




> LR is no different. The developers built LR with certain rules.  It is understandable that a new user might not know what those rules are, but it is not reasonable to expect those rules to be different.


I respectfully disagree with you, in that you think what we are talking about applies to a set of rules built for developer presets. Also, and not for nothing but... some rules are meant to be changed. Hence - Feature requests/bug reports. 



Mark Sirota said:


> That's assuming that you only apply presets as the first step.  What if you adjust exposure, blacks, and contrast, and then want to apply a Split Toning preset?  Should it reset the exposure, blacks, and contrast sliders to the default?



See now this example, I can relate to. And I agree with where you're going with it. And this is also why I find this aspect of the develop process to be a bit inconsistent. However... using your example I'll say that no, they shouldn't be affected technically speaking, but ONLY if that split tone preset was made to affect the values within the split toning box. Naturally, if someone made a split tone preset that affected those values which you've used in the example then they would/should change. And with this, I'm kind of seeing what you guys are alluding to. If I had things my way, then we would either have to back track a lot, or make sure to apply presets first then continue editing. I guess there's no chance of having it both ways. 



> Right.  So your workflow is to use a variety of presets for a variety of "looks".  But my point is, that's not the only use of presets.  I never do that.


 All well and good however we are but two users here. And each of us does things differently, obviously. That said, what exactly "do you do" ? I find it strange that you'd never use a preset as a baseline to achieve a certain look. Even when batch processing. 



> That's exactly the point!  All presets only include those values with which they were created.  When you create a preset, you can choose which controls will be included in the preset.  If you want your presets to include everything, then include everything.  If the ones you downloaded don't do that, edit them!  (Or create a new preset based on them.)  The creator of the preset didn't know what you wanted...   There's no need to change Lightroom to get what you're asking for -- all you need to do is create your presets to do what you want them to do.


 Again, totally with you there. The whole thing even ! BUT... something still bugs me. I'm going to create a few presets in order to present an example to you guys. I'll report back tomorrow. 

Doug


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## clee01l (Feb 7, 2011)

> > As has been discussed before. A preset is an incomplete set of adjustments that gets applied.
> 
> 
> Why exactly do you think that it is incomplete ?


By incomplete, I mean that a preset can be as simple as one adjustment to one parameter.   All of the other parameters are left unadjusted and retain the same settings they held prior to the application of the preset.  What you want is for a preset to set every parameter.  Off the shelf Presets rarely if ever do this.  I have suggested a method for you to edit your presets to achieve your goal. 





> > The built in LR presets and the off the shelf presets that you buy or D/L for free are meant to be applied once to achieve a look and no other presets are expected
> 
> 
> Right ! Totally with you there. I've NEVER implied that they were meant to do anything else. And this is where the problems start. So I apply a preset right, but I don't like it for that particular photo so.. I choose a different preset.
> ...


 If you do not like my keyboard analogy, try this:  In this country we drive on the right side of the road.  That is the 'rule' here. You can certainly drive your car in the left lane, but you will not like the results.  If you go to Great Britain , Japan or one of the other countries where different driving rules are in effect. you need to change your behavior.  Lightroom, Like my car was developed to fit the expectations of most of the civilized world.  Certainly the Lightroom developers could implement different rules for Preset behavior.  Doing so, would be like telling everyone in the US that tomorrow we will start driving on the left. It is not going to happen.  I've been a programmer and understand some of the complexities behind a decision about Preset behavior. This behavior was designed this way because it required less programming effort ($) and met the requirements for most situations. Meeting the requirements for ALL situations is very labor intensive and is never cost justified.  The results is always going to force the design decision toward the 'most bang for the buck'. 

Doug, I am not trying to be augmentative and I do not enjoy combative dialogs on the finer points of how this or any program should behave. You either accept the design decisions that make LR behave they way it does, or you use another program that more closely aligns with your expectations. I will not rejoin this conversation.


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## Mark Sirota (Feb 7, 2011)

Doug,

As I mentioned earlier, I would support a feature request that allowed for a preset to include a Reset before applying the preset controls.  A Reset isn't exactly the same thing as the Import state, but it's probably close enough to meet your needs.

Then, presets that were designed to provide a "look" could do what you want them to do, without having to include every single control (though I still don't understand what's wrong with just including every control).


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## Mark Sirota (Feb 7, 2011)

Doug B said:


> That said, what exactly "do you do" ? I find it strange that you'd never use a preset as a baseline to achieve a certain look. Even when batch processing.


 
I have my defaults set to the way I like to start.  I (almost) never apply a Develop preset on Import, and I have no installed presets that provide a "look".  I do my culling in Library (I'll sometimes jump to Develop to try a crop or a little exposure adjustment or white balance correction in order to facilitate culling).  Once I've narrowed down the shoot to my picks, I'll bring each one into Develop and adjust them independently.

I'll pick a profile, then work down from the top in Develop's right panel.  I will occasionally apply a preset that bundles a bunch of related sliders -- I have one that includes the Detail sliders that I use as a starting point for portraits, one that applies a mild orange/blue split tone that I'll typically use for sunsets, one that applies split toning for sepia (used on photos that have already been converted to B&W).  I have a few others, but those are the most commonly used for me.

I do very little of what you call "batch processing".  I'll use Auto Sync to correct the white balance for an entire shoot, and sometimes I'll batch-apply a crop if I'm going to be printing a bunch of 5x7's (but then I'll adjust each independently, because a center crop is rarely ideal).  But I don't experiment with "looks", especially with other people's looks.

Did that answer the question?


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## Doug B (Feb 7, 2011)

clee01l said:


> Doug, I am not trying to be augmentative and I do not enjoy combative dialogs on the finer points of how this or any program should behave. You either accept the design decisions that make LR behave they way it does, or you use another program that more closely aligns with your expectations. I will not rejoin this conversation.



I'm sorry if all you took my posts was that I wanted to be argumentative. It was not my intention, in the least bit. I was looking for a back and forth dialog, that would help me understand where you guys were coming from, and help me see outside my own line of reasoning. Just because I was up front with you, and said that your analogy wasn't very good, is hardly a reason to be upset. But I'll respect your decision to not rejoin this conversation. Thanks for attempting to help me out, anyway. 



Mark Sirota said:


> Doug,
> 
> As I mentioned earlier, I would support a feature request that allowed for a preset to include a Reset before applying the preset controls.  A Reset isn't exactly the same thing as the Import state, but it's probably close enough to meet your needs.
> 
> Then, presets that were designed to provide a "look" could do what you want them to do, without having to include every single control (though I still don't understand what's wrong with just including every control).



Could you try and explain how having a preset with an included reset is different from what I've been asking for in the first place ? I thought that's what I was getting at?



Mark Sirota said:


> I have my defaults set to the way I like to start.  I (almost) never apply a Develop preset on Import, and I have no installed presets that provide a "look".  I do my culling in Library (I'll sometimes jump to Develop to try a crop or a little exposure adjustment or white balance correction in order to facilitate culling).  Once I've narrowed down the shoot to my picks, I'll bring each one into Develop and adjust them independently.
> 
> I'll pick a profile, then work down from the top in Develop's right panel.  I will occasionally apply a preset that bundles a bunch of related sliders -- I have one that includes the Detail sliders that I use as a starting point for portraits, one that applies a mild orange/blue split tone that I'll typically use for sunsets, one that applies split toning for sepia (used on photos that have already been converted to B&W).  I have a few others, but those are the most commonly used for me.
> 
> ...



I honestly don't work that much differently than you, if at all. I do my culling the same as you do, then I also usually always start by choosing a camera profile, and will go back to the top and work my way down. But if I'm adjusting stuff like street candids/PJ shots then I might find myself in presets for a "look". That's a big part of what presets are meant for. Just because you guys don't use them as such, doesn't contradict that fact. 

In the meantime, I'll try and come up with a way to achieve my goals with the hundreds of presets that are already in my library. Thanks for all of your input, I do appreciate it. 

Doug


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## Mark Sirota (Feb 7, 2011)

Doug B said:


> Could you try and explain how having a preset with an included reset is different from what I've been asking for in the first place ? I thought that's what I was getting at?



It's not exactly the same because hitting Reset doesn't get you back to the Import state -- it gets you back to your defaults.  Your import state may differ from the defaults if you have applied a preset on import, or if you imported a file that already had Develop metadata stored in XMP (because, perhaps, it was worked on in Bridge/Camera Raw).  Or, in the case of Virtual Copies, where there isn't really an "import state".

Also, Reset will do something different if you change your defaults.  That is, if you reset an image tomorrow, it might not look exactly the same as if you reset that same image today, because you've changed your defaults between today and tomorrow.  But in that same time, the Import state hasn't changed.

So it's a subtle difference, but I suspect is one you could live with.  I don't think there's a realistic way to implement exactly what you asked for (go back to Import state before applying the preset), but it would be possible to implement the Reset.

So the feature request I'm recommending would be to modify the Develop Preset mechanism such that a preset could include a flag which means, "Reset the image before applying the controls in this preset."  If that would meet your needs, I suggest filing an official feature request using the link in the gray bar at the top of the page.

What I don't understand is how this is meaningfully different from a preset that includes every control.  I suppose one is that Reset will reset the crop, but a preset cannot include a crop.  But still, I think you could modify/rebuild your presets to do what you want without waiting for Adobe to implement this feature request.


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## Doug B (Feb 7, 2011)

The reset premise sounds good. Though I doubt they'd spend their time/man power on this, since the only thing it accomplishes is not having to cmd+z after each time you select a preset. As to how your solution is "meaningfully different" from a preset that includes every control, is simply the matter of me not wanting to go through  and edit hundreds of presets, on top of any other presets I may download in the future. Call that lazy if you want, but I'd rather spend time on images rather than that. 

Doug


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## Mark Sirota (Feb 7, 2011)

You'd still have to do that if that feature request went through -- you'd have to add the reset to every preset.

Another possibility is a keyboard modifier -- perhaps if you were to Shift-click a preset, it would reset first.  And if you hold Shift while mousing over a preset, it would do the same for the Navigator preview.


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## Bruce J (Feb 7, 2011)

I'm definitely not wanting to get in the middle of this discussion, but Doug, I wonder if you are aware of, or are using the Navigator panel on the top of the left pane in the develop module?  That would allow you to preview the effect of any preset w/o actually applying it.  Thus, no need to 'undo' one preset before trying another.  Just my $.02.  Cheers,


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## Doug B (Feb 7, 2011)

Mark Sirota said:


> You'd still have to do that if that feature request went through -- you'd have to add the reset to every preset.


 
Haha... well, at the very least, marking a preset with a flag or something, to denote that it gets a reset, would be easier than adding every value individually I suppose. 



> Another possibility is a keyboard modifier -- perhaps if you were to Shift-click a preset, it would reset first.  And if you hold Shift while mousing over a preset, it would do the same for the Navigator preview.


Oooh, I like this idea a lot. Thanks for that. 



Bruce J said:


> I'm definitely not wanting to get in the middle of this discussion, but Doug, I wonder if you are aware of, or are using the Navigator panel on the top of the left pane in the develop module?  That would allow you to preview the effect of any preset w/o actually applying it.  Thus, no need to 'undo' one preset before trying another.  Just my $.02.  Cheers,



No worries Bruce, thanks for interjecting. Yes, I do try and use the navigator panel, but for me, it's just not big enough to really let me see the true nuance of what each preset is adding. This gives me another idea though, stealing really from Mark's idea. What if we could add a keyboard modifier while hovering over an image that would show us (the whole image, not just in the navigator)  what it would look like with a preset ? Or better yet, implement a permanent toggle button/switch that would allow the preview of a preset on the entire image. Consider it an extension of what we see in the navigator box, and it wouldn't actually change any of the values until you actually chose it. 

This brings me to another question. Is the image in the nav box based off of the camera generated jpg preview? 

Doug


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## Mark Sirota (Feb 7, 2011)

Doug B said:


> This brings me to another question. Is the image in the nav box based off of the camera generated jpg preview?


 
No, it is based on the current state of the image.  It must be -- for example, if you convert a color image to B&W, do all the previews appear to be in color or B&W? Conversely -- if you set your camera to B&W, take a shot, and import the raw file, do the Navigator previews show up in color or B&W?


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## Doug B (Feb 7, 2011)

Of course, stupid of me. It also wouldn't make sense for it to be based off of a jpg because you can't really recover highlights or do much with exposure, and that would certainly be a crutch for the preview box. Duh. Ok never mind then ! 

Doug


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## Doug B (Feb 5, 2011)

I've submitted this to the proper, official channel:



> *******Enhancement / FMR*********
> Brief title for your desired feature:
> 
> "Develop presets, reset to neutral on advance."
> ...



While I realize that one can click "reset", or do a CMD+Z or even alt+cmd+z for multiple undo's, that become mighty tedious after just a short while. I'll also admit that at times the effect of taking on multiple preset attributions sometimes takes on a desirable effect, but I'd rather stick with a time saver than that. 

Has this ever been discussed ?

Doug


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## MarkNicholas (Feb 9, 2011)

*The Starting Point*



Doug B said:


> But um, there is actually. It's not magical, and I agree, it's not really "neutral" either. What it is however, is where each slider resides, that represents the "base" or "foundation".
> 
> Sure, but this goes for every piece of RAW editing software out there. The simple fact is, that these programs still need a point in which to start, that represents an image as close to just the RAW data as possible. In LR, these values are usually represented with a value of "0" or "50", because those are the values which the devs thought best represented RAW data.
> 
> Doug


 
I think that the "starting point" is the correct term. There is no neutral or original value. The position of the sliders at import are dictated by Lightroom's default settings..not by anything else.


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