# Adobe Sensei, automatically tags your photos



## Didi

Hi, autotagging is a long awaited topic. 
as help search in the mobile app its nice.
But where are these tags stored? and can they also be viewed in Lightrom Classic as keywords? 

thx Didi


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## Johan Elzenga

This is indeed a bit confusing. The images are tagged, but not in a visible way and you don't have an interface where you could check it and make corrections. There is a keyword field where you can add your own keywords, but the automatically assigned keywords from Sensei do not appear there.

And they do not sync to Classic at all.


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## prbimages

It seems wrong, then, to even call this "tagging". It's really just some kind of intelligent search, isn't it?


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## johnbeardy

Well, there are tags applied by the AI. It's just that Adobe can see them but you can't! The search is the less intelligent element.


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## PhilBurton

johnbeardy said:


> Well, there are tags applied by the AI. It's just that Adobe can see them but you can't! The search is the less intelligent element.


And exactly how does it benefit a user who can't see the tags?


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## sizzlingbadger

There is good chance the Tags aren't even human readable so may not be much use too you anyway.


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## johnbeardy

PhilBurton said:


> And exactly how does it benefit a user who can't see the tags?



The auto tags are used to power the search in some unknown combination with metadata that you've entered.

My general problem with this AI search is that one has a feeling of uncertainty. Has it listed all the photos which meet your criterion?  With Google search we know it can't have found everything, but it's fine when the first few results are good. When we are looking through our own photos, is it as acceptable?



sizzlingbadger said:


> There is good chance the Tags aren't even human readable so may not be much use too you anyway.



This is an extract of the tags Sensei generated for this picture. I presume the numbers are percentages of certainty, so "autumn" is a miss while "picnic" was a surprise but understandable.






"autumn":62,
               "picnic":61,
               "boy":58,
               "young":63,
               "nature":58,
               "people":63,
               "person":55,
               "elderly":55,
               "outdoor":55,
               "smiling":58,
               "man":74,
               "adult":68,
               "talking":55,
               "female":62,
               "couple":77,
               "male":59,
               "son":56,
               "child":59,
               "beautiful":55,
               "woman":69,
               "worker":55,
               "friends":58,
               "father":58,
               "outdoors":57,
               "park":62,
               "family":61,
               "computer":57,
               "happy":62,
               "men":57


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## Johan Elzenga

prbimages said:


> It seems wrong, then, to even call this "tagging". It's really just some kind of intelligent search, isn't it?



Your images are definitely tagged, because an intelligent search 'on the fly' would take too much time. My guess is that they are analyzed and tagged immediately upon upload, but you don't see the tags.


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## Didi

just playing aroung with the tagging and checking the syncing between CC and classic.
So Sensei is only in CC without showing the tags - @ Johan: where or how did you extract the data?
Further entered Key Words in CC won't sync with classic and the other way round the same issue.

just other metadata like the title are synced.

overall this is not really practical right now. Especially as I will probably be using both CC and classic. With Classic clearly the tool to really work on your photos... (for me anyway)


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## Jim Wilde

Keywords do not sync between LR Classic (and LRCC2015 before it) and the Adobe cloud. Never did, and I suspect never will. Which makes a workflow built around both Classic and LRCC not very viable, IMO, so curious as to how you envisage working with them both (and why?).

OTOH, Keywords WILL now sync between the Adobe Cloud end-points of LRCC and LRmobile, though at present can only be viewed in LRWeb.


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## prbimages

Jim Wilde said:


> Keywords do not sync between LR Classic (and LRCC2015 before it) and the Adobe cloud. Never did, and I suspect never will.


This appears to be incorrect (as of today?).

I have just noticed that I can now see my keywords in LRWeb, keywords which were assigned in LR 2015.12 or earlier. (I haven't upgraded to any of the new software yet.)


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## Hal P Anderson

Read the last sentence of the post you quoted.


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## prbimages

Hal P Anderson said:


> Read the last sentence of the post you quoted.


I did. That last sentence refers to "Adobe Cloud end-points of LRCC and LRmobile", which is different from "LR Classic (and LRCC2015 before it)". Otherwise Jim's two statements would be contradictory, which they are not. Just that the first statement seems to be incorrect.


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## johnbeardy

I hope this helps clarify the mess..... When photos are initially synced from "Classic", keywords are read by Adobe's cloud if they have already been written into the file's internal xmp (not sidecar). 

So take one raw file and one DNG/TIF/JPEG and add keywords, then save the metadata back to the files. Sync both files and you'll find that the raw file's keywords haven't synced, the DNG's have.

This is a one off thing. Subsequent keyword changes fail to sync to / from "Classic".

John


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## prbimages

johnbeardy said:


> I hope this helps clarify the mess..... When photos are initially synced from "Classic", keywords are read by Adobe's cloud if they have already been written into the file's internal xmp (not sidecar).
> 
> So take one raw file and one DNG/TIF/JPEG and add keywords, then save the metadata back to the files. Sync both files and you'll find that the raw file's keywords haven't synced, the DNG's have.
> 
> This is a one off thing. Subsequent keyword changes fail to sync to / from "Classic".
> 
> John


John, thanks for your input. If anything I am getting more confused. I have raw files (.arw files), dng files, and tif files, ALL of which are showing keywords on LRWeb. But it turns out I also have raw files, dng files, and tif files for which keywords are NOT displayed. I don't understand the difference. And, you are (I think) saying there should be no keywords shown for any raw files, but I clearly see them on at least some of my raw file photos.

At the minimum, have we disproved the oft-repeated claim that keywords don't sync from "Classic"? You are saying they will sync under certain conditions, correct? (Even though I don't understand yet what those conditions are ... I haven't had time to experiment with new images, so far I have only been looking back at my older, already uploaded, images.)


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## Jim Wilde

prbimages said:


> At the minimum, have we disproved the oft-repeated claim that keywords don't sync from "Classic"? You are saying they will sync under certain conditions, correct? (Even though I don't understand yet what those conditions are ... I haven't had time to experiment with new images, so far I have only been looking back at my older, already uploaded, images.)


Let's clarify what we mean by "syncing". In this context I am talking about changes made in one app being applied to the same image held in a different app, and vice versa. So if an image is held in the sync ecosystem, and a change is made at one point (e.g. LRmobile), does that change then get applied to the same image as reflected in another point (e.g. LR Classic if it's sync-enabled)? Changes to Edits do, Titles do, Captions do, Keywords *don't* in this particular case, because keywords *do not sync between the ecosystem and LR Classic*. Keywords *will*, however, sync between e.g. LRmobile and the new LRCC, and at the moment they will appear also in LRWeb, but I don't think you can yet make keyword changes in LRWeb.

So, now that we're clear about what we mean by syncing, let's talk about the specific issue you raised, which isn't a sync issue rather an initial upload issue. I know that metadata held in XMP (either directly in DNG, Tiff, etc.) or indirectly in XMP sidecars for proprietary raws is initially read and uploaded into the ecosystem, and can be seen in any of the synced apps that can display it. Like John, I had thought this only applied (when uploading from Classic) if the XMP was embedded in the file, though I think maybe we're wrong about that. So either by design or loophole, XMP sidecar data is also read and uploaded as well. Useful to know, but also potentially useless as without the ongoing syncing of changes things could easily get out of alignment.


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## johnbeardy

Notice that I said "are read by Adobe's cloud" and didn't use the word "sync" in that part of my sentence. 

My presumption is that when "Classic" generates the smart previews for the initial upload to the cloud, it processes the original file and sends the resulting image plus any syncing metadata such as title and caption drawn from the catalogue. So when the original does contains embedded keyword data, Adobe's cloud reads it from the smart preview. But in the case of a raw file, LR never saves keywords directly inside the file. I think Adobe just forgot that smart previews inherit all (?) the metadata embedded in the original.

I agree with Jim about this loophole being potentially useless, though maybe it's worse because some people will waste time entering keywords in Mobile. It's very disappointing and I expected Adobe would have done a better job of this. 

John


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## prbimages

OK, slowly becoming more clear  - thanks Jim and John. If I get any time to experiment, no doubt it will become even clearer (maybe?).


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## PhilBurton

johnbeardy said:


> I hope this helps clarify the mess..... When photos are initially synced from "Classic", keywords are read by Adobe's cloud if they have already been written into the file's internal xmp (not sidecar).
> 
> So take one raw file and one DNG/TIF/JPEG and add keywords, then save the metadata back to the files. Sync both files and you'll find that the raw file's keywords haven't synced, the DNG's have.
> 
> This is a one off thing. Subsequent keyword changes fail to sync to / from "Classic".
> 
> John


I have always treated my NEFs as effectively "read only," and used sidecars (I believe invented by Adobe) to capture metadata, edit changes etc.  I have never seen the need to convert the NEFs to DNGs.  I know Adobe is championing the DNG format, but that does mean that they deliberately ignore the needs of people who still use NEFs and CR2s?  

And a one-off sync only?

These details are very user-hostile and unintuitive.  For me the list of reasons to stay with Classic just keeps getting bigger and bigger.


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## Johan Elzenga

PhilBurton said:


> I have always treated my NEFs as effectively "read only," and used sidecars (I believe invented by Adobe) to capture metadata, edit changes etc.  I have never seen the need to convert the NEFs to DNGs.  I know Adobe is championing the DNG format, but that does mean that they deliberately ignore the needs of people who still use NEFs and CR2s?
> 
> And a one-off sync only?
> 
> These details are very user-hostile and unintuitive.  For me the list of reasons to stay with Classic just keeps getting bigger and bigger.



This has nothing to do with DNG versus proprietary raw files. Lightroom Classic does not sync metadata like keywords. The initial upload of some metadata is a glitch, but there is no synching after that initial upload.


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## johnbeardy

PhilBurton said:


> I know Adobe is championing the DNG format, but that does mean that they deliberately ignore the needs of people who still use NEFs and CR2s?
> 
> And a one-off sync only?



As I wrote before, I think it's accidental, Phil, and remember it applies to any type of file with embedded xmp - TIFs, PSDs, JPEGs. It's a case of Adobe's cloud reading the keywords which happen to be in the image, not syncing. So one-off. Practically useless.

John


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## PhilBurton

@Johan and @johnbeardy, Thanks for correcting my misunderstanding.

But I will say this.  Properly done, we should not have to be concerned about such detailed rules.  As someone said in another thread, what about those non-IT background people.  Shouldn't these products be "intuitive," so we can use them without consulting thick user manuals?


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## Jim Wilde

PhilBurton said:


> @Johan and @johnbeardy, Thanks for correcting my misunderstanding.
> 
> But I will say this.  Properly done, we should not have to be concerned about such detailed rules.  As someone said in another thread, what about those non-IT background people.  Shouldn't these products be "intuitive," so we can use them without consulting thick user manuals?


All of this applies only if you want to attempt a combined Classic and LRCC workflow, which frankly I'd advise most people against at this stage (or at least proceed with caution). With an LRCC-only workflow (which is probably how it was intended/designed to be used), even total IT novices will be able to cope...it really is not that complicated.


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## johnbeardy

It's more than Classic plus LRCC, Jim, because keywords are shown in LRM where they are editable, and also now in LRW. or are you meaning LRCC to include those too? Anything with a rounded icon?


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## Victoria Bampton

PhilBurton said:


> Properly done, we should not have to be concerned about such detailed rules.


They never really intended for people to have "a foot in both camps". Used the way it was designed, it's simple.


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## Didi

Hi, autotagging is a long awaited topic. 
as help search in the mobile app its nice.
But where are these tags stored? and can they also be viewed in Lightrom Classic as keywords? 

thx Didi


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## Jim Wilde

johnbeardy said:


> It's more than Classic plus LRCC, Jim, because keywords are shown in LRM where they are editable, and also now in LRW. or are you meaning LRCC to include those too? Anything with a rounded icon?


The latter, John.


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## prbimages

OK, for the sake of completeness and my own sanity, I have done some minimal testing (using LR 2015.12 -> CC environment) and have verified the following:

DNG file, metadata NOT saved to file, keywords DON'T upload.
DNG file, metadata SAVED to file, keywords DO upload.
Proprietary raw file (.ARW), metadata NOT saved to XMP sidecar, keywords DON'T upload.
Proprietary raw file (.ARW), metadata SAVED to XMP sidecar, keywords DO upload.
At least the behaviour is consistent - if you "save metadata to file" before syncing, then your keywords will upload along with the Smart Preview, regardless of whether you are using DNGs or proprietary raws.

Contrary to others claiming this is nearly useless, I think it is actually a nice feature! My workflow is as follows:

I do all my work, including keywording, in 2015.12 (soon to be Classic).
I put selected images into synced collections, so Smart Previews (including keywords) get uploaded to the cloud.
I can then view and share those synced images very easily with family, friends, clients (onscreen on my phone or a web browser, through MyPortfolio, Spark, shared albums, shared Web galleries, etc.).
The advantage of having the keywords uploaded is that I get far better search functionality when perusing images on my phone or on LRWeb. I can search for people by name, I can search for locations in detail (e.g. name of venue), I can search for event names, and so on, none of which Sensei would understand without the keywords being there.

I just need to make sure that the metadata gets written - I guess the easiest way to do that is to set the "Automatically write changes into XMP" option in the catalog preferences. And that I do the keywording before the photo is uploaded. Since the keywords don't sync after the first upload, if I change the keywords I would need to delete the image from the synced collection, then add it back again, to get the updated info into the cloud.

Of course, this would all change if moving to a workflow based on LR CC.


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## Victoria Bampton

Sounds pretty logical - thanks for sharing prbimages!


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## Jim Wilde

prbimages said:


> Contrary to others claiming this is nearly useless, I think it is actually a nice feature! My workflow is as follows:
> 
> I do all my work, including keywording, in 2015.12 (soon to be Classic).
> I put selected images into synced collections, so Smart Previews (including keywords) get uploaded to the cloud.
> I can then view and share those synced images very easily with family, friends, clients (onscreen on my phone or a web browser, through MyPortfolio, Spark, shared albums, shared Web galleries, etc.).
> The advantage of having the keywords uploaded is that I get far better search functionality when perusing images on my phone or on LRWeb. I can search for people by name, I can search for locations in detail (e.g. name of venue), I can search for event names, and so on, none of which Sensei would understand without the keywords being there.



I do something pretty similar, though in my case I go a bit further as I also eventually want to replace the smart previews in the cloud with full rez originals (easy enough to do, more about that will probably follow in Victoria's planned series of blog posts about using a combined Classic + LRCC workflow). One thing to note about this "transfer of keywords" process is that all assigned keywords (direct and inherited) are transferred, so any keywords that you might have had set to NOT export will still appear in LRCC (e.g. hierarchical "organisational" keywords). Might be useful, might be a pain.


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## Didi

yes smart workflows are very interesting
next to the keywords topic, I am also not very happy with the possibilities reagrding videos, which cannot be sent into the cloud from LRC. So I am playing around with uploading them via LR CC to have them in the cloud and synced back into LRC. Also the syncinc ability of smart collections is not yet here...


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## RobOK

Victoria Bampton said:


> They never really intended for people to have "a foot in both camps". Used the way it was designed, it's simple.



I don't think there are two camps per se, there are a suite of products. For example which "camp"  is LR Mobile (e.g., iPad) in? Over the next few years many people will be using both, its too simplistic to say pick one or the other.


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## tspear

RobOK said:


> I don't think there are two camps per se, there are a suite of products. For example which "camp"  is LR Mobile (e.g., iPad) in? Over the next few years many people will be using both, its too simplistic to say pick one or the other.


Nah, it is simple. You either believe in their Vision that everything's in the cloud or you continue to pay their profit margins to support everyone who wants to be in the cloud.

Tim the cynic

Sent from my LG-TP260 using Tapatalk


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## Victoria Bampton

RobOK said:


> I don't think there are two camps per se, there are a suite of products. For example which "camp"  is LR Mobile (e.g., iPad) in? Over the next few years many people will be using both, its too simplistic to say pick one or the other.



They designed one to be local desktop based and the other to be cloud based. They’re not really designed to overlap too far. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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