# Camera profiles as default on import



## TerryM (Dec 26, 2008)

I recently updated to LR 2.2 and am starting to use camera profiles. But it is very confusing and not a lot of info on how it works that I have been able to find. I have three Canon cameras. 5D, Rebel xt, and powershotG9. If I set up three defaults that are camera and serial number specific, say, using camera standard. Am I to understand if 5d and rebel pics are in the import folder, and the 5d default preset is selected, it will only be applied to the 5d images? Then what about the images that were from the rebel?  It doesn't seem that I should have to separate the images by camera prior to import.  I would appreciate any info to clarify this.


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## ThomasB (Dec 26, 2008)

I suggest to assign the camera profiles not via a preset. The better way is to change the standard develop setting. Go to the develop section, set all controls to the standard you want to have, including the camera profile (e.g. "Camera Standard"). Then press and hold ALT. Then you see a "set as standard" button in the bottom of the right panel. Click on it and you're done.

LR uses camera-type specific camara profiles. Even if it displays only "Camera Standard" or "Camera Faithful", it uses internally "Camera Standard Canon 5D" or "Camera Faithful Rebel XT", depending on the camera type used for the actual picture.


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## Gene McCullagh (Dec 26, 2008)

Thomas is exactly right!

However, setting up the camera profiles as presets is useful if you want to see what the other presets would look like by hovering and watching the preview window or if you want to override your default on import.


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## TerryM (Dec 26, 2008)

ThomasB said:


> I suggest to assign the camera profiles not via a preset. The better way is to change the standard develop setting. Go to the develop section, set all controls to the standard you want to have, including the camera profile (e.g. "Camera Standard"). Then press and hold ALT. Then you see a "set as standard" button in the bottom of the right panel. Click on it and you're done.
> 
> LR uses camera-type specific camara profiles. Even if it displays only "Camera Standard" or "Camera Faithful", it uses internally "Camera Standard Canon 5D" or "Camera Faithful Rebel XT", depending on the camera type used for the actual picture.



I am having trouble understanding. What is the difference in a profile and a standard develop setting?  Are you saying select any canon camera image, create profile using Camera standard, but not camera or sn specific and use this for import. That it will apply the correct camera standard on the fly? So if there were images from two different camera, the right data would be applied? If this it true, I wonder why the ability to be camera specific is there?


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## tzalman (Dec 26, 2008)

One reason could be to differentiate between two units of the same model if they have been individually calibrated.
Elie


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## MMarz (Dec 26, 2008)

Interesting thread..

So if you are shooting RAW, with two different bodies, and want the same develop settings applied at import, what's the easiest way to "sync" them?


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## TerryM (Dec 26, 2008)

genemcc said:


> Thomas is exactly right!
> 
> However, setting up the camera profiles as presets is useful if you want to see what the other presets would look like by hovering and watching the preview window or if you want to override your default on import.



It seems to me a preset is a profile and if it is under the default folder it becomes a default preset. I don't understand how to distinguish the difference. Could you explain the above paragraph in simple terms that my mind can understand.


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## TerryM (Dec 26, 2008)

ThomasB said:


> I suggest to assign the camera profiles not via a preset. The better way is to change the standard develop setting. Go to the develop section, set all controls to the standard you want to have, including the camera profile (e.g. "Camera Standard"). Then press and hold ALT. Then you see a "set as standard" button in the bottom of the right panel. Click on it and you're done.
> 
> LR uses camera-type specific camara profiles. Even if it displays only "Camera Standard" or "Camera Faithful", it uses internally "Camera Standard Canon 5D" or "Camera Faithful Rebel XT", depending on the camera type used for the actual picture.



OK, Thomas. I think I understand what you said. I can set one default to the camera standard and it will apply the correct camera calibration to the photo based on the camera used to take that photo.  I also tried this.  I made three default presets, one for each camera. I then made a radical change to the exposure of camera "a" and updated the preset in order to determine if LR was switching between camera calibration profiles and it is. So It appears that if you have some unique settings for a particular camera that works fine. After importing files from all three cameras, camera "a" was over exposed as I had set it.  So I believe you can control multiple cameras on the fly this way.


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## Gene McCullagh (Dec 26, 2008)

Hi Terry!

Presets live in the Presets panel and can contain settings for nearly every Develop setting in LR. The camera profiles live in the Camera Calibration panel and only deal with the settings in that panel. 

While presets can be applied to ANY image, camera profiles are locked to particular cameras. By default LR uses one standard calibration. But using the ALT/OPTION key as Thomas describes above allows you to set default calibrations by camera model. This way, if you were to import images from three different models each model would get its previously set default.


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## TerryM (Dec 26, 2008)

genemcc said:


> Hi Terry!
> 
> Presets live in the Presets panel and can contain settings for nearly every Develop setting in LR. The camera profiles live in the Camera Calibration panel and only deal with the settings in that panel.
> 
> While presets can be applied to ANY image, camera profiles are locked to particular cameras. By default LR uses one standard calibration. But using the ALT/OPTION key as Thomas describes above allows you to set default calibrations by camera model. This way, if you were to import images from three different models each model would get its previously set default.



Gene, I appreciate the help. This has been a very confusing topic. I think I am finally understanding it. I actually created 3 defaults, one for each camera and it seems to be working fine when the import files are mixed from multiple cameras. I think one thing that confused me is in the import panel you have to pick a preset or default calibration, such as 5d, but that does not mean it will apply 5d calibration to the rebel. It automatically switches. I just cannot believe Adobe writes this great software and not any info on how it works. Thanks for the help.


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## Mark Sirota (Dec 26, 2008)

The confusing part that hasn't yet been explained, I think, is that the "camera standard" profile is camera-dependent.  That is, even though all three of your cameras generate Canon raw files, the profile applied by "camera standard" is actually different for each camera.

Lightroom and Camera Raw figure this out automagically -- you can apply Camera Standard as a default or with a preset, and LR and ACR will automatically apply the correct "camera standard" profile for that camera.

Did that help?


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## TerryM (Dec 27, 2008)

Mark Sirota said:


> The confusing part that hasn't yet been explained, I think, is that the "camera standard" profile is camera-dependent.  That is, even though all three of your cameras generate Canon raw files, the profile applied by "camera standard" is actually different for each camera.
> 
> Lightroom and Camera Raw figure this out automagically -- you can apply Camera Standard as a default or with a preset, and LR and ACR will automatically apply the correct "camera standard" profile for that camera.
> 
> Did that help?



Yes, Mark. It does help. Thank you.  One thing that is still confusing to me. You refer to applying Camera standard as a default or with a preset. I am having a problem understanding what is a default. When I go to the export panel, I have to select a develop preset to process the images with. I actually created three default presets, one for each camera. that way it seems if I wish to make other develop changes for a specific camera in addition to the camera calibration I can do that. I tried and tested this and it works. The three defaults I set up are all under the folder, "default" so maybe this is what everyone is referring to as the default. Does that make sense? sorry for the confusion.


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## Brad Snyder (Dec 27, 2008)

I think we're getting tied up in vocabulary here.

Profile - a specific algorithm of color rendering when importing camera raw files. These are specific to given camera models. They are selected in the Camera Calibration Panel in the Develop module. Each is specific to a camera model, but all cameras from a given manufacturer have analogous profiles, (eg. Canon, Nikon). Additionally, a Profile can be set by a Develop Preset(see below), or can be established as a Default (see below).

Preset - a collection of Develop Module settings, which are applied together, either manually, or via the import dialog. These can be applied to any image, regardless of source. And can range from a single setting value, to all available settings applied simultaneously (eg. exposure +1, or exposure +1, sat -1', crop, rotate, align, dust clone/heal, ad inf.)  These are created pressing the (+) icon on the Develop Preset Browser. Among the variables that can be set, is the camera calibration profile.

Default - a collection of Develop mode settings that can be assigned for application to all images, always, at import time. These can be segregated by camera serial number if desired. One of the variables that can be set as a default is the camera calibration profile.


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## TerryM (Dec 27, 2008)

thanks Brad.


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## Mark Sirota (Dec 27, 2008)

Brad Snyder;32''2 said:
			
		

> Preset - a collection of Develop Module settings, which are applied together, either manually, or via the import dialog.



Specifically, these are "Develop Presets".  There are also Metadata Presets, Adjustment Brush Presets, Export Presets, etc.  Develop Presets can include Profiles, which is why they've come up in this discussion.


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## Macro (Dec 27, 2008)

Brad Snyder;32''2 said:
			
		

> I think we're getting tied up in vocabulary here.
> 
> Preset - a collection of Develop Module settings, which are applied together, either manually, or via the import dialog. These can be applied to any image, regardless of source. And can range from a single setting value, to all available settings applied simultaneously (eg. exposure +1, or exposure +1, sat -1', crop, rotate, align, dust clone/heal, ad inf.)  These are created pressing the (+) icon on the Develop Preset Browser. Among the variables that can be set, is the camera calibration profile.



Since the Camera Calibration Profiles are camera model specific, then don't we need to create a separate User Preset for each camera?  For example:  Camera Standard 5D, Camera Standard 5'D, Camera Standard XSi, etc.???

David


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## Brad Snyder (Dec 27, 2008)

No, they're identically named internally, to allow for that possiblility. No harm in doing it that way, but not required.


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## Brad Snyder (Dec 27, 2008)

Thanks for the addition, Mark. Nothing like trying to clarify something, and opening up another door of confusion.


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## TerryM (Dec 27, 2008)

So how many default setting can you have? And where do you select them on the import panel?


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## Brad Snyder (Dec 27, 2008)

Only one per camera model, or optionally one per serial number, or one per ISO setting, or multiple combinations of serial number/ISO.

Here's the Adobe help page.

If you choose 'None' as the Develop Preset in the Import dialog, the pertinent (by model/serial number/ISO combination) default settings will be applied.


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## TerryM (Dec 27, 2008)

So, Brad, when I set a default for my 5d, camera standard, are you indicating I cannot combine any other setting of the develop module with this setting? Sorry that this is so confusing for me. I really do appreciate your help.


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## Brad Snyder (Dec 27, 2008)

No, you can set the default to be any combination of Develop module settings you want.

Get a 5d image up, in Develop module.

Do with it what you will, including all develop sliders, crops, whatever, plus select a Camera Calibration profile, say 'camera standard', if you like.

Hold down Alt, notice 'Reset' changes to 'Set Default...' . Click the 'Set Default ...' button.
You will be given the Option to: 

a) Restore Adobe Defaults
b) Change the 5D default settings to the settings currently (at this moment) applied in the Dev Module
c) Cancel.

There's a "No Undo..." warning, which simply means that Ctrl-z/Undo won't work in this case.

Now, if you import 5D images, with the 'None' develop preset, selected in the Import dialog, all of the settings which you just chose, will be applied to all imported images.


(In the more complicated optional case, option b) above would indicate that the 5D was a specific s/n, or ISO setting, or combinations of both)


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## TerryM (Dec 27, 2008)

OK, Brad. Thanks a million. I got it finally. I think where I got confused is there is a default folder in the presets and I wanted to set the default and also update a preset under default. Bad idea.  Anyway, thanks a lot. Your last statement sums it up and makes it very clear.


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## Brad Snyder (Dec 28, 2008)




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## MMarz (Dec 28, 2008)

Brad Snyder;32''2 said:
			
		

> I think we're getting tied up in vocabulary here.
> 
> Profile - a specific algorithm of color rendering when importing camera raw files. These are specific to given camera models. They are selected in the Camera Calibration Panel in the Develop module. Each is specific to a camera model, but all cameras from a given manufacturer have analogous profiles, (eg. Canon, Nikon). Additionally, a Profile can be set by a Develop Preset(see below), or can be established as a Default (see below).



If you save a camera Profile as a Default, and decide you want to revert back to the original Profile, I assume the Alt + Set Default, select Restore Adobe Default Settings will bring you back to what you refer as the original algorithm, yes?



> Default - a collection of Develop mode settings that can be assigned for application to all images, always, at import time. These can be segregated by camera serial number if desired. One of the variables that can be set as a default is the camera calibration profile.


I understand completely...  Let's suppose I shoot RAW using two bodies that by default yield very different image qualities, and I want to bring the results of each closer to what I feel/see as the look I want.  Would I capture two images of the same subject, one from each body, Develop them to the same look and feel and then set the Default for each body so that the settings, though likely very different, are applied at ingestion in hopes of having similar starting points?

Also, I know I did it once in the past...  How do I set the defaults as ISO specific settings?


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## TerryM (Dec 26, 2008)

I recently updated to LR 2.2 and am starting to use camera profiles. But it is very confusing and not a lot of info on how it works that I have been able to find. I have three Canon cameras. 5D, Rebel xt, and powershotG9. If I set up three defaults that are camera and serial number specific, say, using camera standard. Am I to understand if 5d and rebel pics are in the import folder, and the 5d default preset is selected, it will only be applied to the 5d images? Then what about the images that were from the rebel?  It doesn't seem that I should have to separate the images by camera prior to import.  I would appreciate any info to clarify this.


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## Brad Snyder (Dec 28, 2008)

MMarz;32'71 said:
			
		

> If you save a camera Profile as a Default, and decide you want to revert back to the original Profile, I assume the Alt + Set Default, select Restore Adobe Default Settings will bring you back to what you refer as the original algorithm, yes?
> 
> Yes. You can get to it from the menu as well.
> 
> ...


.


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## MMarz (Dec 28, 2008)

Brad Snyder;32'33 said:
			
		

> If you choose 'None' as the Develop Preset in the Import dialog, the pertinent (by model/serial number/ISO combination) default settings will be applied.



So if you have changed the default profile for a specific body, it will be applied every time you ingest images...  What if you select a develop preset at ingestion...how are conflicts resolved?  Or, are all the settings applied?  

IE.  A develop preset is selected at ingestion that applies a healthy dose of Clarity..  But the default profile does the same at a slightly different amount...what is the end result of this conflict in settings?


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## Brad Snyder (Dec 28, 2008)

The *preset* is applied last and 'wins' the battle of the 'dueling settings'.

If you think about it, that's not really different from what happens at every import anyway.


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## TerryM (Dec 28, 2008)

Brad Snyder;32'74 said:
			
		

> The *preset* is applied last and 'wins' the battle of the 'dueling settings'.
> 
> If you think about it, that's not really different from what happens at every import anyway.



Brad, the fact that the preset is applied last after the default is a fact that I am not sure is to be found anywhere. Really appreciate you bringing that out. It is almost as though Adobe doesn't want us to know too much.  Good stuff. Thanks.


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## Mark Sirota (Dec 28, 2008)

It may not be well documented, but it's inherent in the definition of "default".  Defaults are what happens if nothing else happens.  If you don't explicitly set something, then it gets set to the default.  (Not just in Lightroom -- in anything!)


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## TerryM (Dec 28, 2008)

Brad Snyder;32'74 said:
			
		

> The *preset* is applied last and 'wins' the battle of the 'dueling settings'.
> 
> If you think about it, that's not really different from what happens at every import anyway.



So, Brad. If I import using a preset, the default is applied first and then the preset?   One other question, If I use a preset that has camera standard profile in it, will it also apply the correct camera standard profile for the camera used? In other word, if images are from two cameras, will the proper standard profile be used?


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## Macro (Dec 28, 2008)

While in Developer, one-by-one I opened a RAW file from each of these cameras:
Canon XT, XTi, XSi, 5DMkII, and Nikon D8'.

In each case I selected Camera Landscape from the Camera Calibration Profile drop-down list.  I then created and saved a New Develop Preset.

After creating and saving these 5 new Presets, I compared the contents of the Preset files.  All parameters in these files are identical except for id, title, and uuid.

I can apply any of these 5 presets to an image from either camera and the results are the same. :?

So what makes this camera specific?

David


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## Denis de Gannes (Dec 28, 2008)

Macro;321'3 said:
			
		

> While in Developer, one-by-one I opened a RAW file from each of these cameras:
> Canon XT, XTi, XSi, 5DMkII, and Nikon D8'.
> 
> In each case I selected Camera Landscape from the Camera Calibration Profile drop-down list.  I then created and saved a New Develop Preset.
> ...


Presets are different from "Set default develop settings" which can be made Camera, Serial# and ISO specific. You can have many of these default settings which will be applied at import. If you import a file from a camera where you have not created a specific "default develop settings" the LR normal default will be applied.
First go to <Edit > Preferences > Presets and select Make defaults specific to Camera Serial number and Make defaults specific to camera ISO setting.

Next select a file from your camera at a particular ISO setting and select the Camera profile you wish to be the default and any other settings you wish to be applied globally at import (e.g. Clarity; Vibrance; Saturation; Sharpening; Noise Reduction etc.)

Next go to < Develop > Set Default Settings and select "Update to Current Settings".

Then any further imports from the same camera and ISO will be applied on each import.

Repeat for different cameras and different ISO as you wish.


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## MMarz (Dec 28, 2008)

Macro;321'3 said:
			
		

> In each case I selected Camera Landscape from the Camera Calibration Profile drop-down list.  I then created and saved a New Develop Preset.



Curious if after applying the same preset to RAW images from each body if the resulting images were consistent.  Did the same develop setting yield the same end image from each body?

I ask because my D2x and D3'' generate very different looking raw files.  Not sure why.  But applying the same profile to different body's images result in different end images.

Not sure if that makes sense.


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## TerryM (Dec 28, 2008)

Mark Sirota;32'8' said:
			
		

> It may not be well documented, but it's inherent in the definition of "default".  Defaults are what happens if nothing else happens.  If you don't explicitly set something, then it gets set to the default.  (Not just in Lightroom -- in anything!)



Mark, that is exactly why the default folder in the develop presets confused me so. I was under the impression that presets under this folder would act as defaults, but that is not the case. I am not sure why that folder is there. And if Adobe knows, they are not telling.


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## Brad Snyder (Dec 28, 2008)

Macro;321'3 said:
			
		

> I can apply any of these 5 presets to an image from either camera and the results are the same. :?
> 
> So what makes this camera specific?
> 
> David



As I explained above, the Lr external/internal naming convention addresses this. Each supported camera has the same 'style' of profiles available. The preset merely says 'choose this style of camera profile', Lr then selects the appropriate one for the image source camera.


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## Brad Snyder (Dec 28, 2008)

MMarz;321'9 said:
			
		

> Curious if after applying the same preset to RAW images from each body if the resulting images were consistent.  Did the same develop setting yield the same end image from each body?
> 
> I ask because my D2x and D3'' generate very different looking raw files.  Not sure why.  But applying the same profile to different body's images result in different end images.
> 
> Not sure if that makes sense.



I expect that consistency was intended not between camera models, but with the results of CaptureNX.  What happens if you do the same operation using the two cameras and the same styles within CNX?

The point of the camera-matching profiles was to address user complaints that they couldn't easily obtain results similar to the mfgr's renedering process.


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## Mark Sirota (Dec 29, 2008)

TerryM said:


> Mark, that is exactly why the default folder in the develop presets confused me so. I was under the impression that presets under this folder would act as defaults, but that is not the case. I am not sure why that folder is there.



I don't have a folder called "default" in the "Develop Presets" folder.  Do you mean the folders on disk (as seen in Explorer/Finder), or do you mean as seen in the Lightroom interface?  I don't see it either way.


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## Denis de Gannes (Dec 29, 2008)

Mark Sirota said:


> I don't have a folder called "default" in the "Develop Presets" folder.  Do you mean the folders on disk (as seen in Explorer/Finder), or do you mean as seen in the Lightroom interface?  I don't see it either way.



Did anyone read my post made today at 11.2'am today?


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## Brad Snyder (Dec 29, 2008)

Yes, but to be honest, while everything you said is both correct and informative, I wasn't sure what question in the thread you were replying to. 

I believe that in the quote in your post, Macro/David asked one question, and you answered a different one.

He said, smiling ......


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## Denis de Gannes (Dec 29, 2008)

Brad Snyder said:


> Yes, but to be honest, while everything you said is both correct and informative, I wasn't sure what question in the thread you were replying to.
> 
> I believe that in the quote in your post, Macro/David asked one question, and you answered a different one.
> 
> He said, smiling ......



His question was "So what makes this camera specific?"

The point I was making was that Develop Precepts are not camera specific unless you follow the procedure I outlined. They have to be made  "default develop settings" to be made camera specific.

Then maybe I do not understand the point he is trying to make.!!


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## Mark Sirota (Dec 29, 2008)

Denis, camera profiles are always camera specific.  The name "camera standard" or "camera landscape" or whatever is just shorthand for dozens of profiles, one per camera.


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## TerryM (Dec 29, 2008)

Mark Sirota said:


> I don't have a folder called "default" in the "Develop Presets" folder.  Do you mean the folders on disk (as seen in Explorer/Finder), or do you mean as seen in the Lightroom interface?  I don't see it either way.



Mark, I have 3 folders in LR presets called defaults, Lightroom presets, and User presets. I am talking about the Presets in the left panel of the develop module.


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## Denis de Gannes (Dec 29, 2008)

Mark Sirota said:


> Denis, camera profiles are always camera specific.  The name "camera standard" or "camera landscape" or whatever is just shorthand for dozens of profiles, one per camera.



Yes but each camera has more than one profile. LR will choose one as the default if you wish to change the default then you can specify a new default. Thats all I am trying to say. Sorry for the confusion.


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## Mark Sirota (Dec 29, 2008)

Terry, I don't think that "defaults" folder is standard Lightroom fare.  Does anyone else have it?


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## Brad Snyder (Dec 29, 2008)

Nope, never seen the defaults folder. And I don't know how it would have gotten there, absent Terry creating it at some point


Denis, yes, of course you're right, but what the poster wanted to know was why didn't he need to create multiple presets:

5d   - Landscape
5d   - Portrait
3'D - Landscpe
3'D - Portrait
4'D - Landscape
4'D - Portrait

And the answer of course is that Lr was designed so that simply

Canon - Landscape
Canon - Portrait 

would figure out the camera specific profile to apply respectively to each camera.

To be honest tho', I'm not sure what happens with his Nikon D8'. I know I've read about it, but I forget the result.


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## Mark Sirota (Dec 29, 2008)

What was the question about the D8' again?  I can't find it in the thread.


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## Brad Snyder (Dec 29, 2008)

post 32, He created develop presets for 4 Canons and a Nikon.

I think that a preset which calls for a Canon CM profile, will fail to Adobe standard when apllied to a Nikon photo, and vice versa, but I don't have a source  handy that tells me that.


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## Mark Sirota (Dec 29, 2008)

Ah, I see.  Well, it's all about the profile name.  In cases where the profile names are the same (e.g. Camera Standard), the profile would be applied just fine.  In cases where no such profile exists (e.g. Camera Faithful for a Nikon file), Adobe Standard would be applied.  At least that's how I remember it, I haven't tested this.


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## TerryM (Dec 29, 2008)

*What about jpg?*

What happens if I import jpg files? I would not want to apply anything to them on import, not even the default. How to we get around this?


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## TerryM (Dec 26, 2008)

I recently updated to LR 2.2 and am starting to use camera profiles. But it is very confusing and not a lot of info on how it works that I have been able to find. I have three Canon cameras. 5D, Rebel xt, and powershotG9. If I set up three defaults that are camera and serial number specific, say, using camera standard. Am I to understand if 5d and rebel pics are in the import folder, and the 5d default preset is selected, it will only be applied to the 5d images? Then what about the images that were from the rebel?  It doesn't seem that I should have to separate the images by camera prior to import.  I would appreciate any info to clarify this.


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## TerryM (Dec 29, 2008)

TerryM said:


> What happens if I import jpg files? I would not want to apply anything to them on import, not even the default. How to we get around this?



OK, I know the answer to by own dumb question. Camera calibration is already embedded in the image. Sorry.


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## TerryM (Dec 29, 2008)

Brad Snyder said:


> Nope, never seen the defaults folder. And I don't know how it would have gotten there, absent Terry creating it at some point



I probably did way back in the beginning and forgot it. Now I was thinking it was part of the standard fare. See how we can get screwed up?


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## Brad Snyder (Dec 29, 2008)

TerryM said:


> OK, I know the answer to by own dumb question. Camera calibration is already embedded in the image. Sorry.



And RGB file types should default to an Import Develop Preset of "None". So no slider changes are applied either.


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## TerryM (Dec 29, 2008)

Brad Snyder;3223' said:
			
		

> And RGB file types should default to an Import Develop Preset of "None". So no slider changes are applied either.



Brad, that brings up an interesting thought. I some slider changes were also included with the default, it would then apply them to the jpg file. So, a good reason not to do that, huh?


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## Brad Snyder (Dec 29, 2008)

No, I don't think it would. Somethine else to test, I guess.


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