# Newbie (please be kind) on a storage question.



## robertholman (Apr 7, 2020)

Hello all,

I have online  back-up software installed on my Mac, that automatically uploads any changed file, as soon as it's changed - Word, Excel, Desktop, Apps etc. This works brilliantly for me, and has done so for 6 years, for 7 family devices.

But I now realise, having used Lightroom on my Mac and iOS for about three months now, that I have no idea where these edited (and not edited) photos are stored!

Clearly I would like to add this folder to my upload back-up service, so that whenever I make a edit, it gets uploaded to this service -but I have no idea where this folder is to do it!

Storage size is not a problem as I have 4 terabytes (is that how you spell it?) and I only have 15% stored there currently.

So, can you chaps (and chapettes) let me know where this folder (or folders) is stored on my Mac please? I can then add it to my back up service, and sleep better at night! I can also add it to my Time Machine back up (belts and braces)

Or are my originals stored with Lightroom servers ...........?

I'm confused. Please explain in non-techie language. I'm old and new knowledge learning is a lengthy experience ...

Thanks in advance.

Bob


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## Johan Elzenga (Apr 8, 2020)

Lightroom 3.2 photos are stored in the Adobe cloud, and so are the edits.


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## robertholman (Apr 8, 2020)

Hi Johan,

Thanks very much for your response. I understand that now. And I 'get' why I couldn't find it on my Mac!

I have a subsequent question then please - how do I get access to them, to download them and save them on my Mac, so that they can be synced to my back-up software?

I can then update this folder periodically from Adobe cloud, and I then know that I have a secure back up.

Does that make sense?

Best wishes,

Bob


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## Johan Elzenga (Apr 8, 2020)

The question makes sense, but the answer is that you can't really do that. You can store a copy of the originals locally (in the Lightroom preferences), so these could then be backed up to your own online backup. But the edits cannot really be backed up locally.


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## clee01l (Apr 8, 2020)

The edits have to be stored in the cloud since they are sent along with a proxy image to be applied locally on the Lightroom  (cloudy) device accessing the cloud.   Adobe has robust backup system inlace to insure that no user loses images or data.  So rest assured that Adobe will always have a copy of your edits  and your originals as long as you keep your subscription. and then probably for some period after you decides to stop.


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## robertholman (Apr 8, 2020)

Hi Cletus,

Thanks very much for this response. I see. So, let me get this straight:

"For as long as I continue to pay Adobe each month, then I can't save my edits to my Mac hard drive?"

Is that right?

And should I decide that I want to use a competitor, at some future date, then I'll not be able to 'transfer' my edited photos (which I own) to this alternate supplier?

Is this right too?

Best wishes,

Bob


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## Johan Elzenga (Apr 8, 2020)

robertholman said:


> For as long as I continue to pay Adobe each month, then I can't save my edits to my Mac hard drive?"


If you stop paying Adobe then you can't either.



robertholman said:


> And should I decide that I want to use a competitor, at some future date, then I'll not be able to 'transfer' my edited photos (which I own) to this alternate supplier?


The edits are proprietary. That is nothing new. It is the case with Lightroom Classic and earlier, and it is the case with any other raw converter. You can transfer the (unedited) raw photos, you can transfer exported derivatives with edits applied, but you can't transfer raw+edits.


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## robertholman (Apr 8, 2020)

Hi again Rohan,

Thanks for this. I had no idea by how much I'd be tied in to Lightroom.

Just so's I know (should I ever fall out of love with LR, which I find good, but this is my first experience of photo editing) how do I transfer/export unedited RAW files or export with edits applied, please?

Thanks in advance,

Bob


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## Jim Wilde (Apr 8, 2020)

You'd be just as tied to most other raw editing programs. As Johan said, the edit algorithms are proprietary, so competitor products would likely have trouble understanding and applying the edits that any other program has created.

But, answering your questions:

1. Transfer/export unedited Raw files, assuming you're wanting to leave the Adobe subscription, can be achieved by using the Adobe Downloader.....this would download all your images from the cloud into a date-based folder sctructure complete with the XMP data containing your edits. That XMP data would be embedded in DNG, Tiff, PSD files, or into XMP sidecar files for proprietary raw files. Whether the new program that you switch to would be capable of understanding that XMP data is debatable.

2. Export with edits applied....see the "Saving & Sharing Photos" section in your Edit Like a Pro book.


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## PhilBurton (Apr 8, 2020)

robertholman said:


> Hi again Rohan,
> 
> Thanks for this. I had no idea by how much I'd be tied in to Lightroom.
> 
> ...


You have just personally encountered "user lock-in," the goal of every software vendor and website operator these days.  You are very wise to understand the ramifications of Adobe's product offer and to have an exit plan.


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## robertholman (Apr 8, 2020)

Thank you Phil. It's always perfect to be wise after the event ...

But at least I know where I stand now. Decisions, decisions!

Bob


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## Johan Elzenga (Apr 8, 2020)

PhilBurton said:


> You have just personally encountered "user lock-in," the goal of every software vendor and website operator these days.  You are very wise to understand the ramifications of Adobe's product offer and to have an exit plan.


No, this ’user lock in’ is not something that Adobe and other raw-software vendors are doing on purpose to force you to stay with them. There is no conspiracy here, no matter how many times you repeat that in this forum (and you have repeated this often enough). It is a consequence of the fact that demosaicing of raw files is not an exact science and there are no standards on how to do that. Each vendor uses its own algoritms, and so raw edits are not interchangeable.


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## John Little (Apr 8, 2020)

I don't use LR cloudy, so the following may be unhelpful or even wrong. But it's important to understand that the edits you make in LR (at least in Classic) are not stored with the photos (I think XML is an exception but I don't use it so someone who does can clarify). The editing steps are stored in the LR catalog, which is basically a database describing everything LR knows about your photos, such as where the files are stored, the editing steps if any, keywords, etc. A a couple more authoritative guides to this are by Victoria Bampton in the Tips and Tricks section of this forum.


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## prbimages (Apr 9, 2020)

Just for the sake of argument - suppose you stopped your Cloudy subscription. Does Adobe keep your images on their servers, or delete them? (I presume they delete them.) If you download your images (and edits!) using the Adobe Downloader, is it then possible to re-subscribe at a later date, and re-load all your images (and edits!) so that nothing is lost?


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## Jim Wilde (Apr 9, 2020)

prbimages said:


> Just for the sake of argument - suppose you stopped your Cloudy subscription. Does Adobe keep your images on their servers, or delete them? (I presume they delete them.) If you download your images (and edits!) using the Adobe Downloader, is it then possible to re-subscribe at a later date, and re-load all your images (and edits!) so that nothing is lost?


The images (and edits) are retained on the servers for up to a year, I believe, to allow time for them to be downloaded by the user or, in the case of a bereavement, by the user's representative.

No reason why a user wouldn't be able to resubscribe and reload all the downloaded content....it will be in the same form as if they had exported using the "original + settings" option. Of course, all the original album organisation would have been lost (so adding keywords to all images representing the folder/album name would be a good thing to do if the user anticipated re-subscribing at a later date).


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## robertholman (Apr 9, 2020)

Thank you all of you, for your very kind assistance, in informing me about this ticklish subject.

I am now much more well informed, by those that are well informed!

Thank you once again. I very much appreciate all the time you've given to me.

Best wishes,

Bob


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## Pvonk (Apr 9, 2020)

Jim Wilde said:


> 1. Transfer/export unedited Raw files, assuming you're wanting to leave the Adobe subscription, can be achieved by using the Adobe Downloader.....this would download all your images from the cloud into a date-based folder sctructure complete with the XMP data containing your edits. That XMP data would be embedded in DNG, Tiff, PSD files, or into XMP sidecar files for proprietary raw files. Whether the new program that you switch to would be capable of understanding that XMP data is debatable.



I understand that the downloaded files' XMP data might not be read by other programs, but would the picture itself still be viewable by other apps?


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## Jim Wilde (Apr 9, 2020)

Only in its original unedited state.


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## Conrad Chavez (Apr 10, 2020)

To clear up some of the uncertainty, here is the official Adobe page about their Lightroom Downloader:
Adobe Lightroom Downloader app

And some informative quotes from it:


> The *Adobe Lightrooom Downloader* app helps you download all your synced Lightroom photos to a destination on your computer's hard-drive.
> NOTE:
> 
> The app downloads all your Lightroom photos and videos from the cloud as *original files* and writes them into a date-based folder hierarchy at the hard-drive location that you specify.
> The *edits* made to the raw images are written into the XMP sidecar files that accompany the downloaded raw files.


And from Cancel Adobe trial or subscription:


> Adobe will continue to store your original images for *one year after your membership lapses*. During that time, you can continue to launch Lightroom to download your original files from our cloud services.



As far as why one application's raw edits won't work in another, one reason is that different raw converters have different feature sets so you can't just map them across. And even when they do share a feature name, if three converters all have a Shadows option, they have likely used three different algorithms based on what each engineering team thought was the best approach, so  Shadows +15 is going to produce a different result in each of them. And, if one company found an innovative new shadow recovery method that blows away all the others, then of course Shadows +15 will have to look different in that program, for a good reason that we like.

For those reasons, even if one program decided to read in all the XMP edits from another program and map them to their own features, even if they have the same feature names, the image wouldn't look the same.

Some companies are trying to solve this problem by throwing machine learning at the problem. On1 Photo Raw has a Lightroom Migration Tool powered by machine learning. Instead of programatically trying to translate Adobe edits into On1 edits, they have machine learning "look" at the Lightroom rendered version and figure out which On1 settings would give the photo the same appearance. Naturally, how well this works depends on how well they trained it. I haven't tried On1 Photo Raw, so I have no idea how good it is.


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