# 2015.2/6.2 feedback to Adobe



## mcasan (Oct 8, 2015)

If you are not happy with the recent LR  ".2" release contents and quality, please go to Adobe's feedback blog and let them know what you think.




http://feedback.photoshop.com/photoshop_family/topics/new-update-6-2


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## happycranker (Oct 8, 2015)

Does anyone from Adobe ever respond to the issues raised in the forums. I have quickly scanned down the woeful list, but nothing from them?


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## Jimmsp (Oct 8, 2015)

happycranker said:


> Does anyone from Adobe ever respond to the issues raised in the forums. I have quickly scanned down the woeful list, but nothing from them?



Yes they do.
See http://feedback.photoshop.com/photoshop_family/topics/new-bug-in-lr-cc-6-2-import

I'm working with them now.


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## Victoria Bampton (Oct 8, 2015)

They've just responded to the wider audience in a blog post Update on Lightroom 2015.2 / Lightroom 6.2 Release


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## tspear (Oct 8, 2015)

Adobe makes a good point, the original import dialog was pretty unfriendly and designed by an engineer twenty years ago and just kept adding to it. So a fresh start to it was the right idea, but the implementation they have chosen sucks. It has pissed me off enough and to me likely foretells the future enough, that I started looking last night for a replacement for LightRoom.

But they did not touch base with the existing LightRoom community and it shows. Even the replies on the blog post are negative.

Tim


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## Johan Elzenga (Oct 8, 2015)

I think Adobe made two mistakes. The first mistake is that they didn't think about their existing user base, and just dropped several features that photographers tend to use daily. There is simply no excuse for that. The second mistake is that they still went for a 'one fits all' solution: they designed a new, simplified interface with only an 'Advanced' option to hide a few things from novice users. Again there is no excuse for that. You can't make one interface that fits selfie-shooters as well as professional photographers. What they should have done is make an 'Import Assistant'. A possibility to let Lightroom guide you through the import procedure step by step. The new 'Add Photos' screen looks like the first step of such an assistant, but that's it. After that first step you're on your own again, so I really doubt that novice users find this easy to use.


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## Hal P Anderson (Oct 8, 2015)

That blog post says that they'll fix the crashing and performance problems, but it says nothing about restoring the removed functionality. Even their apologists don't seem to be listening. 

Johan is right: the new interface won't be any more friendly to naive users than the old one, and perhaps _less _friendly. I'd love to see Adobe just throw this one away and go back to the old one until they can get a top-notch interface designer to come up with something that is _really _better for both newbies and expert users.


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## Victoria Bampton (Oct 8, 2015)

JohanElzenga said:


> What they should have done is make an 'Import Assistant'. A possibility to let Lightroom guide you through the import procedure step by step.



Like this, you mean? http://adobe.ly/1hcSBtP


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## Johan Elzenga (Oct 8, 2015)

Victoria Bampton said:


> Like this, you mean? http://adobe.ly/1hcSBtP



EXACTLY. That would be much better than the present half-baked approach! Such an assistant would be something a newbie would understand, while at the same time the experienced users could continue to have their familiar old style import dialog.

BTW, Adobe says they had lots of positive feedback. They obviously would never admit that everybody hates it, but it's easy to get 'positive' feedback by carefully phrasing your questions. The best (and very funny) example I ever heard is the following: Researchers went into a church, and asked the people the following question: "Do you think it's acceptable when somebody smokes while praying?". As you can imaging, almost 100% replied that this is not acceptable. Then they asked a similar group of church-goers this question: "Do you think it's acceptable that somebody says a prayer while he's smoking?". This time almost everybody replied that this is quite acceptable...


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## Victoria Bampton (Oct 8, 2015)

JohanElzenga said:


> BTW, Adobe says they had lots of positive feedback.



You mean where the post says "We’ve heard great feedback on the changes"?  I'd say it was badly worded.  It could also be read as "we've heard lots of helpful feedback on the changes", referring to the very vocal thread.  And no, I'm not sure which version of understanding was intended either!


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## Johan Elzenga (Oct 8, 2015)

You're right. 'Great' is not necessarily 'positive', but I doubt that Adobe thinks it's 'great' how negatively people react. And 'gimme back my old dialog' is also not 'great feedback' in my humble opinion...


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## jfarrellpa (Oct 8, 2015)

*Where did you get that wizard?*



Victoria Bampton said:


> Like this, you mean? http://adobe.ly/1hcSBtP



Victoria.  That is what should have been done.  Did you make that up or did you pull that from one of your buddies at Adobe?  Things are looking up!

Thanks for all of your honest and straight forward help.  I have directed many of my Lightroom students to your site to get them back to 6.1.1 and has been very helpful.

Thank you,

Joe


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## LouieSherwin (Oct 8, 2015)

It is interesting to watch the responses to the change in the Import UI. Ninety five percent seem to be in the category of "The sky is falling, the sky is falling.". The initial "discussion" has become pretty much a "mosh pit" of complaining. Not very useful to anyone IMHO of course. I tried to add two specific requests to add the Move back and the file rename preview. However, these were instantly merged into the mosh pit topic and virtually lost by now.

The really big problem with this release is the application crashes and that thanks to Victoria's warning I have kept me away from this release until that is fixed. 

I have always felt that the old Import UI was pretty clunky and it never really gave me the options that I wanted. To that end I am stilling Image Ingester Pro as a front end to do most of the heavy lifting of renaming and adding basic metadata and only using Import to update my catalog with the new images. I will have to reserve judgment on the new UI until the time I actually upgrade.

It seems to me that one of the underlying problems here is the architecture of Lightroom it self.  This has become notable with the recent influx of Aperture users. There has been an endless stream posts on this site from poor people getting all confused about catalogs and where are my images and why did all my images disappear when I moved them in Finder/Explorer. Lightroom itself requires a certain level of computer system knowledge that many people simply do not have and the learning curve has been painful for them.

I thank that the update to the Import UI as a genuine attempt by Adobe to help rectify this situation.


-louie


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## Bob Peters (Oct 8, 2015)

Victoria Bampton said:


> They've just responded to the wider audience in a blog post Update on Lightroom 2015.2 / Lightroom 6.2 Release



The arrogance of that Adobe response is astounding!  It sounds like they got some volunteers off the street and asked them to make sense of Lightroom.  Good luck with that, Adobe.


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## tspear (Oct 8, 2015)

Bob Peters said:


> The arrogance of that Adobe response is astounding!  It sounds like they got some volunteers off the street and asked them to make sense of Lightroom.  Good luck with that, Adobe.



Take the concept further to the develop module. 
This is why I am now looking for a replacement.

Tim


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## Waterloo5678 (Oct 8, 2015)

Im a new user to Lightroom and I totally disagree with the assertion from Adobe that the import screen is confusing and difficult.  Admittedly I have been using time spent after an operation productively to learn the system, but following Victoria Bramptons excellent guide for new starters within a week I have managed to import photos from multiple sources including iPhoto (rubbish), Elements (OK but complicated file handling) and direct from iPhone into fully comprehensible and searchable file date based structure, keyword over half of them, rate them all, learn how to use the gradient filters in develop, tart up some images etc etc.  Im not a luddite but am not far short of it - to me all it requires is some research, a bit of trial and error, a willingness to learn and above all time and concentration.

I moved away from Apples own photography software precisely because each iteration was dumbed down further, never seemed to be tested properly and locked you into their own system for ever - its really depressing that Adobe seems to be following a similar path.


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## Bob Peters (Oct 8, 2015)

LouieSherwin said:


> I thank that the update to the Import UI as a genuine attempt by Adobe to help rectify this situation.
> 
> -louie



If the "genuine attempt" is the best Adobe can do then Lightroom is in trouble.


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## jjespdk (Oct 8, 2015)

Bob Peters said:


> The arrogance of that Adobe response is astounding!  It sounds like they got some volunteers off the street and asked them to make sense of Lightroom.  Good luck with that, Adobe.



... and the test department has been replaced with beta testers = you..... Its brilliant. They get license money + free beta testers. Great.... 
Well, I considered to move from LR 6 to CC. But now... Never! Lightroom has to stay in version 6.1 for me. As long as it can. (I wish I didn't upgrade from 5.7 in the first place)


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## clee01l (Oct 8, 2015)

JohanElzenga said:


> I think Adobe made two mistakes. The first mistake is that they didn't think about their existing user base, and just dropped several features that photographers tend to use daily. There is simply no excuse for that. The second mistake is that they still went for a 'one fits all' solution: they designed a new, simplified interface with only an 'Advanced' option to hide a few things from novice users. Again there is no excuse for that. You can't make one interface that fits selfie-shooters as well as professional photographers. What they should have done is make an 'Import Assistant'. A possibility to let Lightroom guide you through the import procedure step by step. The new 'Add Photos' screen looks like the first step of such an assistant, but that's it. After that first step you're on your own again, so I really doubt that novice users find this easy to use.


I think this is a good summary.  There are now two recent instances where Adobe has releases a poorly tested product to the general public. (6.0 & 6.2)  Adobe needs to do more to correct that flaw in their rollout procedure. And they need to do that quickly if they want to retain the existing customer base.  I don't want to use a product unless it has been thoroughly tested.  If Adobe Sales and Marketing thinks it critical that a product like 6.2 be timed to release in conjunction with a Sales event (Adobe Max), they need to recognize that the sales reaction will be a poor one if the product released is seriously flawed. 
Adobe said earlier that they will not provide any feature updates for LR6, and that new features would show up only for cloud license subscription customers until the next full release of the perpetual license version. This was the Adobe talking point on De-haze.    All of the perpetual License user were clamoring for Dehaze to be included in 6.1.   No one would be disappointed if 6.2  did not include a new Import interface.  Even existing subscription users could live without a new import interface.  Yet Adobe crammed through this update without telling any subscribers that it included new and not fully tested functionality.  
Why did Adobe change this policy for Perpetual license holders for 6.2  And can anyone tell me if the Perpetual license version of 6.2 now includes the full screen dehaze and the local dehaze.  IOW Has Adobe reversed it policy to not add new functionality with perpetual license versions?


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## Jim Wilde (Oct 8, 2015)

clee01l said:


> Why did Adobe change this policy for Perpetual license holders for 6.2  And can anyone tell me if the Perpetual license version of 6.2 now includes the full screen dehaze and the local dehaze.  IOW Has Adobe reversed it policy to not add new functionality with perpetual license versions?



The short answer is that they haven't changed their policy. The new import is not a new feature, it's a change to an existing feature and so can be included in both "versions" without the accounting policies getting in the way.


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## Tony Jay (Oct 8, 2015)

FWIW I responded to the blog post put out by Adobe:
I made it clear that I felt that Adobe's "solution" to a perceived issue with the Import dialog by removing useful functionality was poorly conceived.
I also made the point that attempting to placate new users by alienating established users was a very poor business strategy.
Perhaps, for me, even more annoying was Adobe releasing a buggy update prematurely, just for the sake of marketing!

Putting my cards on the table: I really rate Lightroom as an indispensable tool in my photographic workflow. Lightroom has never been "perfect" in an absolute sense - all of us are aware of shortcomings in the various modules. However, the overall package is unbeatable.
Nonetheless, this latest update is a very unfortunate and disappointingly regressive step for the reasons mentioned above.

My $0.02 worth

Tony Jay


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## I Simonius (Oct 9, 2015)

I have  unchecked the offending  preference but a=m still getting problems

Zoom cursor swapped with hand cursor (wrong one at 100%)
Cell view options don't appear or stick
image selected in thumbnails doesn't show for ages
Message box won't go away even if I move the rest of the window away









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## pwp (Oct 9, 2015)

Adobe you've got to be kidding. Having totally embraced Lr since beta & V1 and rolled through the progressive updates with mostly enthusiasm and occasional irritation, V6.2 marks a historic low-point. As a PC user I'm not exposed to the grief experienced by OSX El Kapitan users, but the total mis-fire on the removal of key features in the Import dialog is unforgivable. The old Import UI was never going to win design awards but it wasn't exactly rocket science to figure out. And it worked. As a very busy professional, the ill-conceived V6.2 Import fiasco will do nothing but add time, extra steps and creativity sucking irritation. Please restore the lost features immediately.

-pw


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## tspear (Oct 9, 2015)

pwp said:


> Adobe you've got to be kidding. Having totally embraced Lr since beta & V1 and rolled through the progressive updates with mostly enthusiasm and occasional irritation, V6.2 marks a historic low-point. As a PC user I'm not exposed to the grief experience by OSX El Kapitan users, but the total mis-fire on the removal of key features in the Import dialog is unforgivable. The old Import UI was never going to win design awards but it wasn't exactly rocket science to figure out. And it worked. As a very busy professional, the ill-conceived V6.2 Import fiasco will do nothing but add time, extra steps and creativity sucking irritation. Please restore the lost features immediately.
> 
> -pw



Make sure to comment on the Adobe feedback site.
http://feedback.photoshop.com/photoshop_family/topics/new-update-6-2

Since I feel Adobe only really listens to money, and the response they posted said existing customers are worthless, I have canceled my CC plan while I evaluate other software packages. I will continue to hang out and watch to see if Adobe fixes the problems they caused, or if one of the other packages does what I need. 

Tim


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## kbfoot (Oct 9, 2015)

As I commented on the linked forum, if Adobe doesn't fix this, it's terminal.  This as a Lightroom user since version 1.
Bravo to those who cancelled their CC plan.  If I could demand a refund for my purchase of LR6(even tho 6.2 is the problem), I would.


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## mcasan (Oct 8, 2015)

If you are not happy with the recent LR  ".2" release contents and quality, please go to Adobe's feedback blog and let them know what you think.




http://feedback.photoshop.com/photoshop_family/topics/new-update-6-2


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## davidedric (Oct 9, 2015)

OK Adobe messed up.  I haven't installed the update, so I'm not personally affected, but if I had I could roll back and be in the same position I was a week ago.

I'm just an amateur (albeit it one with long experience of software development and deployment), but I would never install a new release of anything on day 1.  If it were part of my business, I even more certainly would not jump in.

So, I am not about to throw away three years of learning and a damn good product.   I will watch this space and await developments.

Dave


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## Jim Wilde (Oct 9, 2015)

Very sensible, Dave.

I've upgraded because I need to know what the changes are like so that I may be able to help others who run into problems. I get why many users are unhappy, though speaking from a personal perspective I'm largely unaffected by the changes. Most (all?) of the "missing import features" I never used anyway, I'm happy that I can turn off the new Add Photos screen, so no huge drama for me. I understand why Adobe felt they needed to make some changes, though it's not clear to me that they've actually achieved the objective of making life easier for those newbies who couldn't figure out the previous import dialog. Time will tell, I suppose..


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## Karayuschij (Oct 9, 2015)

Jim Wilde said:


> Very sensible, Dave.
> 
> […] I understand why Adobe felt they needed to make some changes, though it's not clear to me that they've actually achieved the objective of making life easier for those newbies who couldn't figure out the previous import dialog. Time will tell, I suppose..



If it is what they want they just have to produce a *Lightroom Elements* version for dummies and don't touch the pro version.
I find this move from Adobe absolutely unacceptable. It is Time that Adobe begins to understand that the competitors are more and more serious and more and more efficient. 
From my point of view the Capture One development module is a lot better that the Lightroom one, but unfortunately there is not (yet) a valid library module as in Lightroom and this is the main reason why I stay with Adobe (for how long I don't know)…


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## Roelof Moorlag (Oct 9, 2015)

> but unfortunately there is not (yet) a valid library module as in Lightroom and this is the main reason why I stay with Adobe (for how long I don't know)…


 And i doubt there will ever be one...
It's the main reason for me that i migrated over from Capture One / Media Pro to LR. The lack of development on Media Pro. Take a look at their user forum. Many years now with very unsatisfied users.


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## Victoria Bampton (Oct 9, 2015)

jfarrellpa said:


> Victoria.  That is what should have been done.  Did you make that up or did you pull that from one of your buddies at Adobe?  Things are looking up!


I did it - as that's what I'd thought they meant when they told me they were going to simplify the import dialog.  I think the new dialog was too far along before I actually saw it though, so it's not looking up that much!


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## Victoria Bampton (Oct 9, 2015)

LouieSherwin said:


> I tried to add two specific requests to add the Move back and the file rename preview. However, these were instantly merged into the mosh pit topic and virtually lost by now.


That was me. I merged them into that main thread because that's the thread Adobe are watching most carefully, and they'd have been completely lost in the traffic otherwise.  Don't panic, there are some good gems in that thread amongst the complaining.


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## Victoria Bampton (Oct 9, 2015)

I don't think the new dialog is a problem in itself. Although my initial reaction was shock and horror, it's really grown on me and there are some bits I like better than the old one (especially the new Source panel).  The problem here is they've taken away features that users rely on, without replacing them with something better.

There's understandably been a huge backlash, and they have to listen to that. Although they've clearly made some pretty major mistakes with this release, I think what's important is what happens next.  That won't happen overnight, so it's just a question of holding tight for now and seeing what they do.  (And for the sympathy vote, the product manager's wife just had a baby - maybe sleep deprivation didn't help!)


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## jjespdk (Oct 9, 2015)

pluton said:


> As I commented on the linked forum, if Adobe doesn't fix this, it's terminal.  This as a Lightroom user since version 1.
> Bravo to those who cancelled their CC plan.  If I could demand a refund for my purchase of LR6(even tho 6.2 is the problem), I would.



But in this case you have the advantage in purchasing LR6 and not CC. 

Lets say that LR6 will be the last version of LR you will ever use. In that case you can use it for many years without additional cost. But if you went with the CC version, and decides to stay on old versions, since the new versions are not your thing, you have to continue to pay for an old unsupported version. That would be a very big cost. This is, in my book, the biggest problem with all this clouding.... You have to move on when the vendor releases new versions.

So the advantage in choosing cloud versions - can turn into the biggest disadvantage...


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## tspear (Oct 9, 2015)

Victoria Bampton said:


> I don't think the new dialog is a problem in itself. Although my initial reaction was shock and horror, it's really grown on me and there are some bits I like better than the old one (especially the new Source panel).  The problem here is they've taken away features that users rely on, without replacing them with something better.
> 
> There's understandably been a huge backlash, and they have to listen to that. Although they've clearly made some pretty major mistakes with this release, I think what's important is what happens next.  That won't happen overnight, so it's just a question of holding tight for now and seeing what they do.  (And for the sympathy vote, the product manager's wife just had a baby - maybe sleep deprivation didn't help!)



Victoria,

Like my post in Adobe thread, my comments were on the lack of functionality. The new look, is fine in concept but they have significantly increased the number of steps required for me to import images. I was willing to wait but prepare for the worst; until the blog post. It just came off to me as rather condescending; especially after the limited number of comments they have provided in the thread. 

Tim


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## Hal P Anderson (Oct 9, 2015)

I'm like Jim: I don't use any of the removed features, but I would be livid if I did. Some (if not all) of them must be brought back, and probably will be.

Give or take a few glaring interface-design sins, it isn't all that bad a dialogue. If they'd move the Cancel and Import buttons back where they belong, make the default for Include to be No Subfolders, and make some of the interface elements match the standards for the OS LR is running under, they might actually help newbies. The other big help for naive users would be to let them run in tutorial wizard mode until they feel confident to take off the training wheels. Import is irreducibly complex, and it's impossible to make intelligent choices if you don't know what LR is all about.


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## donoreo (Oct 9, 2015)

I do not mind the new import dialogue so much.  I just wish it would actually import   I could consistently crash my LR while trying to import.  I did all the suggestions, still crashed.  Had to roll back.  I will test the new version put out today to see if it actually works this time.


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## LouieSherwin (Oct 9, 2015)

Victoria Bampton said:


> I don't think the new dialog is a problem in itself. Although my initial reaction was shock and horror, it's really grown on me and there are some bits I like better than the old one (especially the new Source panel).  The problem here is they've taken away features that users rely on, without replacing them with something better.



Although I have not installed the new release yet, from reading your blog post I suspected that changes weren't as drastic as they first appear.  I really appreciate your diligence in determining what the real changes were. 



> There's understandably been a huge backlash, and they have to listen to that. Although they've clearly made some pretty major mistakes with this release, I think what's important is what happens next.  That won't happen overnight, so it's just a question of holding tight for now and seeing what they do.  (And for the sympathy vote, the product manager's wife just had a baby - maybe sleep deprivation didn't help!)



It seems to me that Adobe did not do a very good job at managing our expectations with these changes. Add to that the crashing issues and the frustration level can rise as it has. However, I think that many forget that they do not "have to" update the instant a new release is available, unless of course your a beta tester. I never jump on a new release precisely because of what has happened here. There is always a risk of problems especially with a application as complex as Lightroom. They are easy to avoid by just  waiting for a little while. 

-louie


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## Johan Elzenga (Oct 9, 2015)

LouieSherwin said:


> Although I have not installed the new release yet, from reading your blog post I suspected that changes weren't as drastic as they first appear.  I really appreciate your diligence in determining what the real changes were.



The most important changes were things that got deleted. You cannot eject the memory card after import anymore. You cannot 'Move' photos, only 'Add' or 'Copy' them. You cannot see the folder hierarchy that Lightroom is going to make if you use dated subfolders. And you cannot see what the resulting file name is going to be if you use a file rename preset. 



LouieSherwin said:


> It seems to me that Adobe did not do a very good job at managing our expectations with these changes. Add to that the crashing issues and the frustration level can rise as it has. However, I think that many forget that they do not "have to" update the instant a new release is available, unless of course your a beta tester. I never jump on a new release precisely because of what has happened here. There is always a risk of problems especially with a application as complex as Lightroom. They are easy to avoid by just  waiting for a little while.



No, you don't have to update immediately, that is true. But when a company releases an update, you should be able to trust that it was thoroughly tested before released. That is no longer the case, apparently.


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## LouieSherwin (Oct 9, 2015)

JohanElzenga said:


> The most important changes were things that got deleted. You cannot eject the memory card after import anymore. You cannot 'Move' photos, only 'Add' or 'Copy' them. You cannot see the folder hierarchy that Lightroom is going to make if you use dated subfolders. And you cannot see what the resulting file name is going to be if you use a file rename preset.



Yes I agree. These are valid points and many including myself have made them on the feedback site. 




> No, you don't have to update immediately, that is true. But when a company releases an update, you should be able to trust that it was thoroughly tested before released. That is no longer the case, apparently.



Trust is a funny thing.  I prefer to trust that all software will have some bugs and sometimes they will be bigger than others. That way I am never betrayed. I don't think for a minute that there wasn't extensive testing before this release. And I am sure that the engineers felt confident that they had a solid release but clearly the  something was missed. It happens. I'm sure that in the eventual post mortem meetings these oversights will be addressed.

-louie


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## Johan Elzenga (Oct 9, 2015)

I'm not so sure that the engineers felt confident. I get the impression that they were overruled by the marketing department. They wanted a release during Adobe MAX.


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## mcasan (Oct 9, 2015)

On1 released a patched version of Perfect Photo Suite 9.5 to deal with the LR .2 release mess.  The patched version brings PPS apps back as valid plugins.


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## kbfoot (Oct 11, 2015)

LouieSherwin said:


> It is interesting to watch the responses to the change in the Import UI. Ninety five percent seem to be in the category of "The sky is falling, the sky is falling.". The initial "discussion" has become pretty much a "mosh pit" of complaining. Not very useful to anyone IMHO of course. I tried to add two specific requests to add the Move back and the file rename preview. However, these were instantly merged into the mosh pit topic and virtually lost by now.


I admit that when Lightroom 4/Process Version 2012 came out, I complained...but since then, I  use it every day without complaint.
But:  This is different.  
The elimination of useful features is a sign of corporate senility.


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## Victoria Bampton (Oct 12, 2015)

pluton said:


> The elimination of useful features is a sign of corporate senility.



Or human imperfection.  We all make mistakes.  What they do in response to the outcry will be more telling.


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