# Non destructive, really?



## mikecox (Jul 8, 2015)

I thought I was clear about "none destructive" edits but I'm beginning to wonder if there are exceptions to the rule.

I was editing an image and discovered I'd cropped it too much so decided to open it up and crop it again. But no matter what I did I couldn't get the crop to open up, so I could recover some of the image I'd cropped out.  

The History was very short, so I couldn't back out of the crop settings I'd set early on, so I decided to just "Reset" everything, but the crop remained unchanged.  So I've lost the part of the image I want back.


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## Conrad Chavez (Jul 9, 2015)

Is there any chance that you exported the image, and when you realized it was over-cropped you opened the exported image instead of the original image?

Opening the exported version would explain why History was so short and the crop could not be recovered.

Try any or all of these three things to verify that you're editing the image you think you're editing:


Choose Photo > Go to Folder in Library.
Choose Photo > Show in Finder/Explorer.
In the Library module, check the photo's File Name in the Metadata panel.

If you find out that you were editing the exported photo, revert all edits and go back to the correct image in the correct folder. You'll probably find a long History and the ability to recover any cropped area.


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## Replytoken (Jul 9, 2015)

What does the image look like if you view it outside of Lightroom?

--Ken


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## davidedric (Jul 9, 2015)

Hi,

Very short history and not able to reset the crop suggests to me a Virtual Copy.  Is that a possibility?

Lightroom NEVER changes the underlying file, just as you thought.

Dave


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## mikecox (Jul 9, 2015)

Conrad Chavez said:


> Is there any chance that you exported the image, and when you realized it was over-cropped you opened the exported image instead of the original image?
> 
> Opening the exported version would explain why History was so short and the crop could not be recovered.
> 
> ...


Thanks Conrad,

When I import a set from my camera I change the name to reflect the date and time only.  I don't rename images again until I have finished editing and arranging the set; then I add a number to the original name in order to maintain the order when I export them.  I was editing a new set when this happened and all I had done with them at that point was assign star ratings and make initial crops.

I will keep your suggestions in mind, the next time it happens. But you have provided the answer to my question, by reinforcing the fact that this should not be happening and it must be something I'm doing.


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## mikecox (Jul 9, 2015)

Replytoken said:


> What does the image look like if you view it outside of Lightroom?
> 
> --Ken


Thanks for asking. 

The problem is Windows can't open CR2 files in Explorer! I know there is a utility that forces Windows to open CR2 files but it got removed while my computer was in the shop. I need to find and re-install, just been too busy, and since it isn't usually a problem, because I export my RAW files as jpg's and I can see them in Explorer just fine.  

I think it's time to find that codec and try re-installing it!


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## Replytoken (Jul 10, 2015)

You could also give FastStone Image Viewer a try.  It reads the embedded jpeg in the raw file.

--Ken


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## mikecox (Jul 13, 2015)

Replytoken said:


> You could also give FastStone Image Viewer a try.  It reads the embedded jpeg in the raw file.
> 
> --Ken


I don't image that would for me since I only shoot RAW.


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## Replytoken (Jul 13, 2015)

mikecox said:


> I don't image that would for me since I only shoot RAW.



There is an embedded jpeg within almost every raw file.  This is what you see when you view your raw file with a program like Windows Explorer or FastStone.  Few programs actually display the raw file data itself.  LR's develop module does, as does FastRawViewer, but most use the embedded file as it is generally quicker to render.

--Ken


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## Denis de Gannes (Jul 14, 2015)

Replytoken said:


> You could also give FastStone Image Viewer a try.  It reads the embedded jpeg in the raw file.
> 
> --Ken


If you are shooting raw, why would you wish to see the embedded jpeg. Shooting raw you are the artist using the raw processor of your choice. If you wish to have the replica of the in camera jpeg, then use the processor supplied by your camera manufacturer, you will get an exact replica.

Lightroom or any other raw processing software offer you another option, why would you pay for another option that provides you with a rendition you already have for free?


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## tspear (Jul 14, 2015)

Denis,

Before I got in the habit of always using Lr, it was handy to use a JPEG preview tool which could extract the preview from the raw file. 
Especially when searching for an image; I used to flip through many images. Now, that I have them organized better, and that I know Lr somewhat better, the slower rendering speed of Lr does not bather me when searching for an image. I can narrow the selection of images fast enough that the jpeg preview does not matter to me anymore.

Tim


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## Denis de Gannes (Jul 14, 2015)

The link below is a test I did several years ago with different raw processing software applications I used at the time. The objects are chosen specifically so that I could compare the live objects with the different renditions.
The white balance was adjusted with each application using the Whibal natural tool included. Each application has its own unique rendition.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/baxter43/sets/72157625678052039


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## Replytoken (Jul 14, 2015)

Denis de Gannes said:


> If you are shooting raw, why would you wish to see the embedded jpeg. Shooting raw you are the artist using the raw processor of your choice. If you wish to have the replica of the in camera jpeg, then use the processor supplied by your camera manufacturer, you will get an exact replica.
> 
> Lightroom or any other raw processing software offer you another option, why would you pay for another option that provides you with a rendition you already have for free?



The reason that I recommended FastStone is because the OP's OT was that he was having an issue in LR and could not view the file in Windows Explorer to see if the issue was also present outside of LR.  FastStone was being offered as an alternative to Windows Explorer as a viewer.

--Ken


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## mikecox (Jul 14, 2015)

Replytoken said:


> There is an embedded jpeg within almost every raw file.  This is what you see when you view your raw file with a program like Windows Explorer or FastStone.  Few programs actually display the raw file data itself.  LR's develop module does, as does FastRawViewer, but most use the embedded file as it is generally quicker to render.
> 
> --Ken


I simply want to view my CR2 files in Windows Explorer, like I have done, seamlessly, in the past.  I didn't need additional software, all I needed was a "Codec" that would force Windows to display my CR2 (RAW) images in Explorer. But, since I went to Win8, I am having problems finding the compatible windows codec that makes viewing my RAW files in Explorer.


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## Anthony.Ralph (Jul 14, 2015)

mikecox said:


> I simply want to view my CR2 files in Windows Explorer, like I have done, seamlessly, in the past.  I didn't need additional software, all I needed was a "Codec" that would force Windows to display my CR2 (RAW) images in Explorer. But, since I went to Win8, I am having problems finding the compatible windows codec that makes viewing my RAW files in Explorer.



Then just Google it...

https://www.microsoft.com/en-gb/download/details.aspx?id=40310

Anthony.


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## Jim Wilde (Jul 14, 2015)

mikecox said:


> ...all I needed was a "Codec" that would force Windows to display my CR2 (RAW) images in Explorer.




Anthony has given you the download link for the Win8 codec, but just to be crystal clear that codec simply allows the embedded jpeg preview to be shown in Explorer. You will not be seeing the Raw file, for that you need a raw converter such as Lightroom.


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## mikecox (Jul 14, 2015)

Anthony.Ralph said:


> Then just Google it...
> 
> https://www.microsoft.com/en-gb/download/details.aspx?id=40310
> 
> Anthony.


I too thought it would be that simple. I tried your link; which I'm pretty sure is the link found, and came up with the same issue I've been dealing with, it won't install on my Win 8.1 machine!


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## Anthony.Ralph (Jul 15, 2015)

Try this one...

http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=41337

Anthony.


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## mikecox (Jul 16, 2015)

Anthony.Ralph said:


> Try this one...
> 
> http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=41337
> 
> Anthony.


BINGO :hail:
Thanks a lot!


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## mikecox (Jul 16, 2015)

mikecox said:


> I thought I was clear about "none destructive" edits but I'm beginning to wonder if there are exceptions to the rule.
> 
> I was editing an image and discovered I'd cropped it too much so decided to open it up and crop it again. But no matter what I did I couldn't get the crop to open up, so I could recover some of the image I'd cropped out.
> 
> The History was very short, so I couldn't back out of the crop settings I'd set early on, so I decided to just "Reset" everything, but the crop remained unchanged.  So I've lost the part of the image I want back.


Since posting this I have observed that when I "Paste Settings" to an image the history disappears; everything except "Import lens Correction", which I set on import from my from the camera.  There is no warning that doing this will wipe out the history.


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## Jim Wilde (Jul 16, 2015)

That shouldn't happen, and doesn't when I try it. Make sure that you have the current (top) history step selected in the History panel before you do "Paste Settings" (as with any develop change, it is applied to the currently selected history step). So if your "Import lens Correction" setting is currently selected when you do "Paste Settings", all history steps above that are indeed wiped out.


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## mikecox (Jul 22, 2015)

Conrad Chavez said:


> Is there any chance that you exported the image, and when you realized it was over-cropped you opened the exported image instead of the original image?.


I didn't think so until I did some testing.  First I discovered a lot of Jpg files in folder, in Explorer, that I thought only contained RAW files.  I scratched my head! 

Then I moved a RAW file to a folder by itself and exported it to an external drive and checked the RAW file I just exported and it had changed to jpg!!

Seriously?  I have been laboring under the illusion that when I export a RAW file to another drive, and convert it to jpg, that the RAW file remained untouched, and a copy of it was sent to the external drive, as a jpg.

I'm scratching my head. How could I so misunderstand Export, for so long?


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## Jim Wilde (Jul 23, 2015)

No Mike, that's not possible.....as you always thought, when exporting any file from Lightroom, the original file is never changed. Can you check again, and if there's still a problem can we have some before/after screenshots (Explorer views of the two folders, plus Export settings)?


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## Ian.B (Jul 23, 2015)

Anthony.Ralph said:


> Then just Google it...
> 
> https://www.microsoft.com/en-gb/download/details.aspx?id=40310
> 
> Anthony.



wow; thank you Anthony; hopefully I found the link to suit my Win 7 64 bit
Something I have always wanted. As they say about forums; we get back what we put in and often we get back so much more


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## Ian.B (Jul 23, 2015)

so now is my cup 1/2 full or 1/2 empty? Doesn't seem to work DNG files


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## mikecox (Jul 8, 2015)

I thought I was clear about "none destructive" edits but I'm beginning to wonder if there are exceptions to the rule.

I was editing an image and discovered I'd cropped it too much so decided to open it up and crop it again. But no matter what I did I couldn't get the crop to open up, so I could recover some of the image I'd cropped out.  

The History was very short, so I couldn't back out of the crop settings I'd set early on, so I decided to just "Reset" everything, but the crop remained unchanged.  So I've lost the part of the image I want back.


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## Jim Wilde (Jul 23, 2015)

Ian.B said:


> so now is my cup 1/2 full or 1/2 empty? Doesn't seem to work DNG files



You need to install this: http://www.adobe.com/support/downloads/detail.jsp?ftpID=5495


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