# Problems with Silver Effex Pro not Saving Images back with original image



## drdale55 (Feb 22, 2011)

Hi All,
My first post...been using LR since V1 but just had my first issue.  I use Silver Effext Pro (as a plug in) and up until LR 3+ everything worked fine.  Now I rarely get my B&W back after I save it in SEPro.  I called Nik and they said it is an Adobe issue.  Based on what the Nik rep said, my sense of the problem was that if I was modifying an image that i had sorted (in LR) by Key word, I might not see it after it was saved....they said it goes into the general catalog rather than back to where I was working.  So...all I have to go looking for it in amonst the 12,000 other images.  This would seem like a royal PITA that Adobe has done to force you to use their B&W presents....must be careful not to get paranoid about this...but it is a real pain.  Any one else have this problem....and even better, a way around it.  Thanks,

Dale


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## sizzlingbadger (Feb 24, 2011)

If you are working from the Folders it should be fine. If you are working in a Smart Collection that is usually ok too if it is based on keywords or meta data that doesn't change. If you are working from a normal collection then you won't see it appear in your collection. This is a royal pita as you say and it has bugged me for a long time.


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## drdale55 (Feb 25, 2011)

Thanks, I was beginning to think it was just me.  It doesn't look like it is anything that is going to be fixed....Nik doesn't care because it works in Photoshop and Adobe doesn't care because they want you to use there own B&W presents.  Oh Well....

Dale


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## mathjak107 (Feb 27, 2011)

its a lightroom bug and its not just with silver efex pro. anything i send to an external editor looses its key wording and ends up in the general catalog and not back along side sorted by meta data. 

it happens with topaz labs, nik software ,and most ofton even stuff i send to photoshop.

 for now i have an easy work around. 

highlight the dng or photo that you want to work on sorted by keyword.  once its highlighted open the general catalog  by clicking none (no filtering ) at the top of the screen .

the highlighted photo will appear in the general catalog and because you highlighted it while sorted by metadata it should take you right to that photo in the general catalog .  do all your editing and sending out to silver efex pro,topaz etc.. the edited copy will appear next to the origonal copy just fine in the general catalog..

NOW HERES THE KEY : highlight the edited copy and click on remove key word and then click apply keyword.  bingo, it will now appear when sorted by keyword again from then on in.

it seems the bug looses the key wording record even though in medadata the key words are clearly shown. deleting the keyword and re-applying fixes the issue.

write adobe and let them know as the more of us that complain about this bug the better the chance they fix it.



more of us here

http://www.lightroomqueen.com/commu...ave-but-edited-image-is-not-in-keyword-filter


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## sizzlingbadger (Feb 27, 2011)

I'm not sure what you mean by 'general catalog' I was only discussing a single catalog. I think you mean the standard Folder System rather than the collection.

The photos don't normally lose their keywords. The issue we were discussing is the fact that the image does not get added to the Collection it was edited from. If you right click on an image and select 'Show In Folder' before you edit it externally it should appear next to the one in the folder when you have finished. You then have to add it to the collection manually.

If you are using a smart collection based on keywords then it should automatically appear as part of the collection due to its keywords.

If you are losing keywords then that is a different issue I think.


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## mathjak107 (Feb 27, 2011)

i think its all the same bug.  in my case if i filter by keyword  and edit using any external edit program the edited photo ends up mixed in with all my 6,000 un-sorted photos even though it shows its keyworded. it should be placed right back next to the dng in the sorted by keyword group but its not seeing the keyword on the edited photos when they round trip.

if you dont use smart collection but simply filter by keyword  and then send it out to SEP does it round trip back to the filtered group or does it just mix in with all the other un-sorted photos and you have to go loking for it?


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## Jim Wilde (Feb 27, 2011)

I can't comment specifically on Silver Effex Pro, but I have found that round-tripping to Photoshop (CS5) works flawlessly every time so far. I have used a keyword filter, dumb collection, smart collection and folder as my starting points, and each test has returned the Tif back alongside the original file (some were Raw, some Jpeg). Keyword counts, collection counts, folder counts all increased by one as expected. The only variations that I encountered were that:

1. When starting in a collection, the stacking count does not show on return.
2. If using Capture Time as my sort order the original file and it's Tif copy stay in the same order position. If, however, my sort order is Added Time, on return from Photoshop the original is moved to the end of the order and the Tif copy is placed alongside it.

So if you are experiencing different behavior on ALL 'round-trips' that might be indicative of an issue with your catalog. Maybe consider resetting the preferences file?


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## mathjak107 (Feb 27, 2011)

i tried deleting the preference file but its no help. if you check the last discussion we had on the link i posted you will see there are others of us that have the same issue. it  must be unique to different computers and so some have the issues and some dont.   

in my case it works just great as long as i dont filter by keyword before exporting to an external editor.   deleting the keywords and re-keywording make everything sort ok again by keyword filter


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## sizzlingbadger (Feb 28, 2011)

I have just tested this. I add the keyword XYZ to an image and the created a filter in the filter bar for Keywords Containing XYZ. I have only 1 image displayed in the grid view. I select it and edit in SEP and then save the file. The new file appears next to the original in the grid view.

Lightroom version 3.3
SEP version 1.007

Maybe its only related to a Windows version of SEP / Lightroom ?

When I edit from within a collection the resulting file is not added to the collection. This is not a bug it is the current design but I'd like to see it changed. We get an option to stack with original so we could have an option to add to the collection we are currently working from, far more useful than a stack as they don't work in collections anyway :razz:


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## Braders (Feb 28, 2011)

http://www.lightroomqueen.com/community/showthread.php?11424-Keyword-list-bug

Seems there's a bug with the new SE2.


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## b_gossweiler (Feb 28, 2011)

Actually, there seems to be a glitch in LR somewhere. I am able to reproduce this in one of my catalogs, but not in all of them.

When doing an edit in an external application via TIFF, you should be able to see the rendered TIFF besides the original within the filtered grid, because it's been created with the keywords, even before saving it back from the external application.

In one of my catalogs, the filtered view shows 2 for the selected keyword in the filter column, but only one image in the grid. Just closing LR and restarting will show 2 images in the grid with the same filter applied. I'll try to isolate what makes this catalog special.

Have you tried this on a newly created catalog, Brad?

Beat


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## Braders (Feb 28, 2011)

b_gossweiler said:


> Actually, there seems to be a glitch in LR somewhere. I am able to reproduce this in one of my catalogs, but not in all of them.
> 
> When doing an edit in an external application via TIFF, you should be able to see the rendered TIFF besides the original within the filtered grid, because it's been created with the keywords, even before saving it back from the external application.
> 
> ...


 
For me there is no issue with any external editor accept the new SE2. A week ago with SE1 i had no such issues.

I downloaded SE2 a few days ago and it the only issue.

Steps.
RAW import
Develp changes
Keyword it
Edit in..SE2
save

result is the following 
1. the image is stacked with the original
2. new keywords are created in my keyword list.




note the mess...


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## b_gossweiler (Feb 28, 2011)

Sorry, I might have missunderstood your problem, and the one I experienced is a different one.

Beat


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## b_gossweiler (Feb 28, 2011)

Maybe the bugs are related or not, anyway, I was able to solve the glitch I encountered by exporting the entire catalog into a new one and using the exported catalog.

This is the problem I encountered:


Import one image
In All Photographs view, assign a keyword XYZ to the image
Open the Metadata Filter, select images with keywords = XYZ
The metadata filter column shows (1) right next to keyword XYZ, the grid shows 1 photo
Do an external edit (in any application), using TIFF to be passed, without requesting stacking
The TIFF gets rendered, it quickly appears and then disappears in the grid
The metadata filter column now shows (2) right next to keyword XYZ, but only 1 image in the grid
Process image in external editor, save
back to LR, the metadata filter column still shows (2) right next to keyword XYZ but only 1 image in the grid
Shut down LR and restart:
The metadata filter column still shows (2) right next to keyword XYZ and 2 images in the grid
As I said, I only encountered this problem in one of my catalogs, and so far I have no idea what's special about it. It was solved exporting the entire catalog.

Beat


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## sizzlingbadger (Feb 28, 2011)

I just repeated my test with SEP 2 and it still works fine....  so the glitch you are seeing may be Lightroom rather than SEP.  My keyword list is flat currently, could it be an issue with the which keywords get exported once you to start to use a hierarchical keyword structure.  (I'm planning a big keyword sort out shortly)


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## mathjak107 (Feb 28, 2011)

b_gossweiler said:


> Maybe the bugs are related or not, anyway, I was able to solve the glitch I encountered by exporting the entire catalog into a new one and using the exported catalog.
> 
> This is the problem I encountered:
> 
> ...



i get that happening in all folders and shutting down lightroom doesnt help. i have to delete the keywords and then reapply. then they all show up in the filtered grid again.


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## b_gossweiler (Feb 28, 2011)

Have you tried in a fresh catalog or exporting your catalog into a new one?

Beat


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## mathjak107 (Feb 28, 2011)

i exported the catalog  it to my portable hard drive and then tried it from there. same results.


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## b_gossweiler (Feb 28, 2011)

Sorry to hear that, but it was worth a try. How about in a fresh catalog?

Beat


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## mathjak107 (Mar 1, 2011)

to do that do i delete all the photos and just re-import?


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## b_gossweiler (Mar 1, 2011)

NO!!

Do File/New Catalog and create a temporary test catalog somewhere on your harddisk. Then import a few (test) images and test your symptoms.

You can switch back to your "real" catalog by chosing File/Open Recent afterwards.

Beat


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## mathjak107 (Mar 1, 2011)

so far so good,its working in the new catalog. ill keep you posted


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## b_gossweiler (Mar 1, 2011)

Next step I try is importing your "problem" catalog into the new one (import from catalog), and see if it's still working OK.

Beat


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## mathjak107 (Mar 2, 2011)

the issue returned when i imported the old lightroom catalog.   i think ill use the new catalog from here on in and leave the exisisting photos in the old catalog since im through editing them.

is their an easy way to import my metadata preset as well as all the other presets i created for external editing and exporting to smug mug?


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## b_gossweiler (Mar 2, 2011)

Sounds like you have "Store presets with catalog" active in your original catalog settings (Presets Tab). Is that the case?

If so, check the folder where the original catalog resides and copy the folder "Lightroom Settings" next to the new catalog (the *.lrcat file) you just created (same place where the "[newcatalog] Previews.lrdata" folder resides)

Beat


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## drdale55 (Feb 22, 2011)

Hi All,
My first post...been using LR since V1 but just had my first issue.  I use Silver Effext Pro (as a plug in) and up until LR 3+ everything worked fine.  Now I rarely get my B&W back after I save it in SEPro.  I called Nik and they said it is an Adobe issue.  Based on what the Nik rep said, my sense of the problem was that if I was modifying an image that i had sorted (in LR) by Key word, I might not see it after it was saved....they said it goes into the general catalog rather than back to where I was working.  So...all I have to go looking for it in amonst the 12,000 other images.  This would seem like a royal PITA that Adobe has done to force you to use their B&W presents....must be careful not to get paranoid about this...but it is a real pain.  Any one else have this problem....and even better, a way around it.  Thanks,

Dale


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## b_gossweiler (Mar 2, 2011)

Unfortunately, there is no way I know of to get the Publish Services settings copied over.

Beat


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## Victoria Bampton (Mar 2, 2011)

Someone mentioned a plugin for transferring Publish Services over.  I'll see if I can find it.


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## Mark Sirota (Mar 2, 2011)

I think you're thinking of Lightroom Voyager, just released on February 23rd.


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## Victoria Bampton (Mar 2, 2011)

That's the one, thanks Mark


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## mathjak107 (Mar 3, 2011)

WOW... more info on the bug.  i created the new catalog as a test.. all worked okay on a few test pictures. i created a key word called places,, keyworded the photos and all works fine.. 
took it the next step.  i created another keyword sub-folder off the main one called places and labeled this one places in nyc..

re-imported photos into that folder and bingo,problem is back. going to the grid sorted by keyword  and trying to edit with topaz or nik returns the edited photos  into the non keyworded group.

the best is even deleting the photos and keywords and starting over leaves that catalog permanently glitched . re-importing into just one level of keywords now wont even allow that to work.


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## b_gossweiler (Mar 3, 2011)

Good investigation work, mathjak !!

I think your findings are a good base to file a bug report with Adobe with a good chance to get fixed.

Beat


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## mathjak107 (Mar 3, 2011)

i just reported the findings


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## mathjak107 (Mar 11, 2011)

Just downloaded the lr3.4 beta but they havent addressed this issue yet


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## LouieSherwin (Mar 11, 2011)

Hi,

I believe I described the problem in post to a lively discussion on the Nik forums site: SEFex2 and LR keywording

To summarize, if you are using LR hierarchical keywords and round trip a photo out to Silver Efex or HDR Efex and back into lightroom the keyword hierarchy is messed up. I believe this is because the lr:hierarchicalSubject xmp metadata structure is not being copied through the complete process. 

Here is my complete analysis:



Louie said:


> Thanks Kevin.
> 
> I believe that this problem only affects those who are using Lightroom hierarchical keywords. There are multiple methods of extracting an image or set of images out of LR and handing them to an external editor. Each method handles hierarchical keywords differently.
> 
> ...


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## Braders (Mar 11, 2011)

Yep, no longer part of that lively discussion!

Thanks for the work Louie.


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## sizzlingbadger (Mar 12, 2011)

I can confirm for those that use the Aperture plug-in it does not seem to have this issue. Having said that Aperture handles its hierarchical keywords somewhat differently so that could explain it. I have only just started moving from a flat to hierarchical keyword structure but I may wait a while a longer now. I upgraded to the the Ultimate collection when SEP2 was released so that I could use it in Photoshop too.


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## mathjak107 (Mar 12, 2011)

LouieSherwin said:


> Hi,
> 
> I believe I described the problem in post to a lively discussion on the Nik forums site: SEFex2 and LR keywording
> 
> ...



i dont know if thats exactly it because some of us have the issue even when cs5 is the external editor.  the keywording has to be removed and re-applyed inorder for lightroom to recognize it.  surely cs5 would be keepng that hierarchy


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## sizzlingbadger (Mar 12, 2011)

I wonder if writing out the keywords as xmp would give different results. Those that are writing out their keywords may have a different experience to those that don't.


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## mathjak107 (Mar 12, 2011)

i tried it both ways, doesnt seem to matter.


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## LouieSherwin (Mar 14, 2011)

I just downloaded a trial of SEP2 and tried a couple of tests to see if I could clearly identify where the problem is occurring.  I tried starting with both a RAW file and a TIFF file with bare keywords and with hierarchical keywords. 

Some additional background. All my raw images are in camera native format (CR2) and my default is to always write metadata to xmp. So I can check the results of any test by using Bridge "File Info". I use the Advanced tab to look in both the Dublin Core subject tag and the lightroom tag. What showed up in the xmp data was always consistent with what showed up in LR after the modified image was imported back into the catalog. I should also note that I pretty much do all my image editing in folders instead of collections.

What I found was that using the Nik supplied  Edit in -> Silver Efex Pro 2 additional external editor always messed up my keywords. With hierarchical it created strange concatenations of the hierarchy. With bare keywords it concatenated one or more together to create a new keyword. This was true wheather starting from a RAW file or from a TIFF file.

On the other hand if I used Photoshop CS5 as my external editor, either as default choice or as an alternative additional editor, then from Photoshop launched SEP2 my keywords always came through correctly.

Hopefully this will be the basis for a useful workaround.

Also I have found is that what is happening to keywords while running SEP2 from LR is quite different than what is happening when using HDR Efex Pro.
-louie


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## Philip Gann (Mar 14, 2011)

*My workaround until the keyword issue is fixed in SEP2*

The workaround I have been using the past couple of weeks to avoid the keyword demon from screwing with my keyword list is to create a virtual copy of the photo then delete the keywords in the new copy. Edit In SEP2 then after saving in SEP2 and finishing my LR work (no plans to go back to SEP2 for this image) I copy the keywords from the original and paste into the virtual copy then do my exporting etc.  Not perfect but once I got into the mode it is not as bad as the mess my keyword list was becoming.

I do have heirachical keywords structure in my list but even if I have not used one of those keywords the problem still occurs.

Hoping for a fix from Nik Software soon.


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## mathjak107 (Mar 14, 2011)

like i said earlier, there are a bunch of us that have that issue with any external editor including cs5  so its more a lightroom bug.


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## LouieSherwin (Mar 14, 2011)

mathjak107 said:


> like i said earlier, there are a bunch of us that have that issue with any external editor including cs5  so its more a lightroom bug.



After another reread of this discussion  I now realize that some of the confusion is due to the fact that we are talking about two different but related problems. I jumped in because the OP was about SEP2 and keywords. 

What you have found and documented appears to be a problem in LR where the active filters fail to find images recently imported via one of the external editor options. 

What I have found that when you access SEP2 via the additional external editor the keywords in the new image file are corrupted, often badly. Since I normally work out of folders and not through filters I was not experiencing the first bug.

However, if you are using smart collections or filtering on keywords I can see that both bugs would look very similar.

-louie


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