# XMP Files aren't being generated



## DeMarC503 (Feb 3, 2015)

Hello! I've got a question regarding XMP files.

Using  Lightroom 5.7.1 I always import my Canon RAW files as DNG & I have  "Automatically write changes into XMP" checked under Catalog Settings.  It has always worked as needed, creating a side XMP file in the same  folder as the DNG files, until today for some reason. It hasn't created  any XMP files automatically or manually (by choosing "Save Metadata to  file" or hitting CMD-S.) I haven't changed any settings & I've tried  importing RAW files from different cards & different cameras, but  still no luck. Any help is much appreciated! Thanks in advance!


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## johnbeardy (Feb 3, 2015)

DNGs don't normally have xmp files, and never have. The file format was designed to allow the xmp metadata to be written into the DNG file itself. 

So you are seeing normal behaviour, and I'm not sure why you might ever have seen xmp files in those folders. Maybe they related to raw files that had been in the folders?

John


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## clee01l (Feb 3, 2015)

Welcome to the forum. 

XMP files are only created when the source image file is in a proprietary format. The DNG format is published and extensible just like TIFF & JPEG formats. The DNG Header section includes an XMP section along with EXIF & IPTC sections.  LR writes the metadata there instead of a separate file which is why you don't get a separate XMP file for JPEGs & TIFFs either.  This is why some people prefer the DNG RAW format over the proprietary RAW format of a CR2 or NEF.  It also means that your system backup will create a new backup of the larger DNG file instead of a small XMP file every time there is a metadata change.


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## DeMarC503 (Feb 3, 2015)

johnbeardy said:


> DNGs don't normally have xmp files, and never have. The file format was designed to allow the xmp metadata to be written into the DNG file itself.
> 
> So you are seeing normal behaviour, and I'm not sure why you might ever have seen xmp files in those folders. Maybe they related to raw files that had been in the folders?
> 
> John



Thanks a lot for your help! I know DNG don't normally use external XMP files, but in the past I've always used both methods (writing the changes directly into the DNG as well as having Lightroom create an external XMP file.) I do it this way because it's easier to send email smaller XMP files that a client can automatically sync up with their system, rather than the larger DNG files. (I send the DNG files to the client once, at the beginning, & then every time I make a change all I need to do is send the smaller files - saves tons of time in the back-&-forth process.)

Anyway, this system has always worked like a charm for me, until today. It still makes the changes to the DNG, but it no longer creates a separate XMP file. It's always done it with along with the DNG's, up to last week. Like I say, I haven't changed any settings, so I'm at a loss as to why it would start doing this.

If you've got any ideas, it would help me out a lot! Thanks again.


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## DeMarC503 (Feb 3, 2015)

Thanks Cletus! I appreciate your help! I've always used both methods (writing the changes directly the DNG as well as creating a separate XMP file.) I do it because it's quicker & easier to send the smaller XMP files to clients rather than the larger DNG files. I've always worked this way without any trouble until today, when Lightroom failed to create an external XMP file. Thanks again for your help!


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## johnbeardy (Feb 3, 2015)

Honestly, Lightroom has _never_ generated external XMP files for DNGs, so maybe you weren't using DNGs before? If not, I really don't know what you may have been doing in the past but there's no way to do it in Lightroom.

You might be able to generate XMP files if you use Bridge. If you mark the DNGs as read only, Bridge will then generate XMP files if you make a metadata change. I'm not sure what then happens at the client's end - IIRC Lightroom and Bridge always prefer the embedded metadata over sidecars.

If the client uses Lightroom, at the start you can do File > Export as Catalog and "include negatives", which sends them the DNGs as well as a mini catalogue. For later changes, you do a File > Export as Catalog again, but without the negatives.

John


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## DeMarC503 (Feb 3, 2015)

johnbeardy said:


> Honestly, Lightroom has _never_ generated external XMP files for DNGs, so maybe you weren't using DNGs before? If not, I really don't know what you may have been doing in the past but there's no way to do it in Lightroom.
> 
> You might be able to generate XMP files if you use Bridge. If you mark the DNGs as read only, Bridge will then generate XMP files if you make a metadata change. I'm not sure what then happens at the client's end - IIRC Lightroom and Bridge always prefer the embedded metadata over sidecars.
> 
> ...




Thank you! I think you solved it with your Bridge answer. Bridge was generating the XMPs separately. Thanks again! I really appreciate it.


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## johnbeardy (Feb 3, 2015)

Great! I knew it couldn't be Lightroom! But beware that point about "IIRC Lightroom and Bridge always prefer the embedded metadata over sidecars"


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## DeMarC503 (Feb 4, 2015)

johnbeardy said:


> Great! I knew it couldn't be Lightroom! But beware that point about "IIRC Lightroom and Bridge always prefer the embedded metadata over sidecars"



I will, thanks again! I've gotten a lot out of your help & really appreciate it.


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## Larion476 (Oct 15, 2015)

I would like to pick up on this thread.  I use both Lightroom and  photoshop with Camera raw because some of the stuff I do cannot be done  in LightRoom.
When I make adjustments to DNG files in lightroom and  go to Bridge, A small icon shows up in the upper RHS corner indicating a  modification.  When I open the file in Camera Raw via Bridge, the  modification do not show, as they would if I were working with NEF or  JPG files.
The literature says that XMP were meant so the info could be shared among different software.
Problem  is LR does not want to generate XMP files and Camera Raw does not  recognize modification made by Lightroom!!  Despite the fact I was told  both Camera Raw and Lightroom share the same engine.

Hope somebody can help with this problem


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## Denis de Gannes (Oct 15, 2015)

Larion476 said:


> I would like to pick up on this thread.  I use both Lightroom and  photoshop with Camera raw because some of the stuff I do cannot be done  in LightRoom.
> When I make adjustments to DNG files in lightroom and  go to Bridge, A small icon shows up in the upper RHS corner indicating a  modification.  When I open the file in Camera Raw via Bridge, the  modification do not show, as they would if I were working with NEF or  JPG files.
> The literature says that XMP were meant so the info could be shared among different software.
> Problem  is LR does not want to generate XMP files and Camera Raw does not  recognize modification made by Lightroom!!  Despite the fact I was told  both Camera Raw and Lightroom share the same engine.
> Hope somebody can help with this problem


See the following.

a. Lr by default reads and writes to the Lightroom Catalog, you can also have the option to request LR to write to xmp. The only time Lightroom will read from an xmp file is when you import image files that have amp data to read. 
b. ACR is a plugin that requires a host application for it to function i.e Photoshop / Bridge, Photoshop Elements. ACR/Bridge read and write to xmp only and cannot access info from the Lightroom Catalog file.
c. Lightroom and ACR do not actually share the the same engine. Lightroom has the same engine built in and does not require any other Adobe products to be installed on your system for it to operate. To wit LR CC 2015.2.1 has the same processing engine as PS CC/ACR 9.2.1; LR 5.x has the same processing engine as ACR 8.x. When you are in LR it reads and writes from the Catalog file and if it detects that there is a difference in the xmp file data it will provide a option for you to update the info in the Catalog to match.

Simply put;
 Lightroom works with the concept the info is in the Catalog.
Photoshop/Bridge/ACR the info is in the file.


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## Johan Elzenga (Oct 16, 2015)

Denis de Gannes said:


> See the following.
> 
> a. Lr by default reads and writes to the Lightroom Catalog, you can also have the option to request LR to write to xmp. The only time Lightroom will read from an xmp file is when you import image files that have amp data to read.



If you want Lightroom to read the XMP file of an already imported image, select that image and then choose 'Metadata - Read metadata from file'.


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## Denis de Gannes (Oct 16, 2015)

JohanElzenga said:


> If you want Lightroom to read the XMP file of an already imported image, select that image and then choose 'Metadata - Read metadata from file'.



Correct, Yes you can but it will not happen automatically even if you have "Automatically write changes to xmp" selected.


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## Larion476 (Oct 16, 2015)

I am using a Nikon 750 shooting RAW (NEF).  I am using LR 5.7 I import my photos in LD by using «copy as DNG».
In the Catalog settings I checked «Automatically write changes to XMP»
Even when I try to «Save Metadata to file »  I get the following Message
«For proprietary camera raw files, metadata will be sqaved to sidecar next to the original photo.  For other files supprted by LR (JPEG, TIFF, PNG, PSD, DNG), XMP metadata will be written to the original file»
So The option to write to XMP is not there!


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## johnbeardy (Oct 16, 2015)

The option to write to XMP is there. You have switched it on automatically, and for DNGs it is written into the file, not into some sidecar.

But to be honest, use either Lightroom or ACR. Lightroom can do everything that ACR can do, and in a better working environment.


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## Johan Elzenga (Oct 16, 2015)

Larion476 said:


> I am using a Nikon 750 shooting RAW (NEF).  I am using LR 5.7 I import my photos in LD by using «copy as DNG».
> In the Catalog settings I checked «Automatically write changes to XMP»
> Even when I try to «Save Metadata to file »  I get the following Message
> «For proprietary camera raw files, metadata will be sqaved to sidecar next to the original photo.  For other files supprted by LR (JPEG, TIFF, PNG, PSD, DNG), XMP metadata will be written to the original file»
> So The option to write to XMP is not there!



It _is_ there. A 'sidecar' file is an XMP file, and for DNG the XMP is part of the DNG file itself. The message is just an explanation by Lightroom about what is going to happen.


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## Larion476 (Oct 16, 2015)

Thanks guys for your answers.

I am actually using LR, installed it almost a year ago after using Photoshop with ACR for a number of years.  I am still in a transition phase.  Problem is when I need to work on my photos using layers or some filters.  When I go to Bridge to open the DNG files, none of the modifications I made with LR show.  I Have to do everything again!
OR
What I am doing now is exporting from LR in .jpg and continue working on the .jpg in Phoopshop files which, I think is not ideal and defeats the purpose of taking the photos in RAW.

If you have any idea to simplify my workflow I would appreciate it.


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## tspear (Oct 16, 2015)

Someone who actually uses it will be along to give more details. But here are the basics.
Stay in Lr, from within Lr select the image and choose edit in Photoshop. This will create a hi resolution TIFF, send the file to Ps. When done in Ps, chose save. The TIFF will be stacked with the original back in Lr.

Tim


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## clee01l (Oct 16, 2015)

tspear said:


> Someone who actually uses it will be along to give more details. But here are the basics.
> Stay in Lr, from within Lr select the image and choose edit in Photoshop. This will create a hi resolution TIFF, send the file to Ps. When done in Ps, chose save. The TIFF will be stacked with the original back in Lr.
> 
> Tim


Tim has the right answer. The LR function that you want to use is called "Edit-In".  PSCC is the default external editor for "Edit-In", but many others can be configured to be accessed here too.  With "Edit-In" and PSCC, LR will pass your original RAW file with all of your LR adjustments passed as XMP either in a a DNG or Sidecar file.  Bridge is redundant, ACR in PSCC is transparent.  Any PSCC changes made (including layers) are passed back to LR as a TIFF (recommended) or PSD (legacy).  This works because the LR and ACR versions are the same.  If there is a mismatch between the LR version and ACR then a TIFF/PSD file is created with the LR adjustments and this is opened directly in PSCC.


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## Larion476 (Oct 16, 2015)

Thank you for the answer.  Unfortunately I am still using Photoshop CS4.
The system tells me I need Camera Raw Plugin 8.7.  To get that I need to upgrade to CS6 or CC, which I am not ready to do right now (Too expensive)


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## clee01l (Oct 17, 2015)

Larion476 said:


> Thank you for the answer.  Unfortunately I am still using Photoshop CS4.
> The system tells me I need Camera Raw Plugin 8.7.  To get that I need to upgrade to CS6 or CC, which I am not ready to do right now (Too expensive)


Then this is the part that applies to you: "If there is a mismatch between the LR version and ACR then a TIFF/PSD file is created with the LR adjustments and this is opened directly in PS."  
You still use the Edit in Function. You get all the benefits of the ACR 8.7 in LR 5.7 and have a TIFF file that you can use with PS v11 (CS4) When you save it (with layers), it is cataloged in your LR catalog and you only have LR and PS11 to deal with.


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## Jim Wilde (Oct 17, 2015)

No you don't need to update, when you get that dialog warning you click on the "Render using Lightroom" option. Lightroom will then create the Tiff/PSD first, using it's own develop engine, instead of it being done in Photoshop. PS CS4 is then started with that Tiff/PSD open, do your stuff in PS, then hit save and the file will be updated in Lightroom. The only very minor downside of this is that if you subsequently decide to abandon the Photoshop work without saving, then you're left with the unwanted Tiff/PSD in Lightroom that you have to delete.


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## Larion476 (Oct 17, 2015)

I installed PSCC 2015 and LR CC 2015 as well as Bridge on a 30 day trial basis.

Cletus, than you for the tip.  When I Right click «Edit IN» on a photo in LR and choose PCC (which is the default) It opens in PCSS with the alteration to the photos.  Which will allow me to do what I want.

I found out something strange if I double click on any of the .DNG file I worked on whether in Bridge of in Window Explorer the original photos is displayed without the modifications made in LR.  It is as if the XMP is ignore.

This means that I am forced to do everything through LR.


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## Denis de Gannes (Oct 17, 2015)

Larion476 said:


> I installed PSCC 2015 and LR CC 2015 as well as Bridge on a 30 day trial basis.
> 
> Cletus, than you for the tip.  When I Right click «Edit IN» on a photo in LR and choose PCC (which is the default) It opens in PCSS with the alteration to the photos.  Which will allow me to do what I want.
> 
> ...



Lightroom by default reads and writes to the Lightroom Catalog, you can also have the option to request LR to write to xmp, by the preference option "Automatically right changes to amp" see the screen capture or from the menu bar select "Metadata, save metadata to file."
You have to use this option for the xmp to be read by Bridge/ ACR since these applications cannot access info from the Lightroom Catalog file.


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## johnbeardy (Oct 17, 2015)

Larion476 said:


> This means that I am forced to do everything through LR.



And that's a problem? 

My guess is you may have more than one copy of these DNGs. Those in your catalogue are having their XMP updated, but you are looking at the others. The other possibility is that auto writing doesn't do anything until you make a change that Lr would need to write to XMP, so just try adding a keyword to some DNGs and forcing the auto write to operate.

There is a second menu command relevant to DNGs - update previews and metadata. This changes the previews that are embedded in the DNGs, so your edits would be visible in Explorer. It's one of the advantages of DNG.


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## DeMarC503 (Feb 3, 2015)

Hello! I've got a question regarding XMP files.

Using  Lightroom 5.7.1 I always import my Canon RAW files as DNG & I have  "Automatically write changes into XMP" checked under Catalog Settings.  It has always worked as needed, creating a side XMP file in the same  folder as the DNG files, until today for some reason. It hasn't created  any XMP files automatically or manually (by choosing "Save Metadata to  file" or hitting CMD-S.) I haven't changed any settings & I've tried  importing RAW files from different cards & different cameras, but  still no luck. Any help is much appreciated! Thanks in advance!


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## clee01l (Oct 17, 2015)

Larion476 said:


> ...if I double click on any of the .DNG file I worked on whether in Bridge of in Window Explorer the original photos is displayed without the modifications made in LR.  It is as if the XMP is ignore...


The DNG file will always contain the original unprocessed image data AND a JPEG thumbnail that came from the camera when the original images was processed in the camera.  It is this JPEG thumbnail that you initially see in LR. If there are LR adjustments these can be stored in the XMP but as instructions that are read by a rendering engine such as LR or ACR. I'm not sure if the RAW file ever gets the JPEG thumbnail updated.  Lightroom will update the LR preview and Bridge will pass the DNG with the embedded XMP to ACR which will render it and open it in PS. 

The most intuitive process flow is to use LR => PS which always catalogs the derivative result as a new image in the LR catalog.  Images that are managed in LR are at risk if they are managed by any other file manager like Windows Explorer or Bridge. For this reason, once in LR, you should only manage the master images in LR.


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## Larion476 (Oct 19, 2015)

Thank you everybody,  I solved my problem by installing the CC versions, I'll probably take the photographer package from Adobe, although I hate to rent software.

I found out that the root of my problem was the Camera Raw Plugin.

I was happily working with Bridge and PS CS4/ACR with NEF files from my Nikon D90 camera. PS could read and manipulate my NEF files.

Trouble started when I bought the D750.  Now PS CS4 could no longer read my NEF files, I had to convert them to DNG, this is when I decided to install LR 5.7.

But as I was saying at the beginning of this thread, any changes made in LR were not seen in PS/ACR.

Turns out I needed Camera Raw plugin 8.7 for PS to read my Nikon D750 files!  And I could not install this version of the plugin on CS4, it needed at least CS6.  Hence my dilemma.

Now everything works fine and I did extensive tests.  Imported NEF files in LR, some I left as NEF some I converted to DNG.  (PS can read now my NEF files).

I made adjustments to some the files both in LR and in ACR and could the see results in either both ways.  If I made correction in ACR I have to click on «Read from File» in LR and sure enough they show. In the case of the NEF files the .xmp sidecar shows along side the original file, in the case of DNG it does not, but as you well pointed out it is embedded in the DNG file itself.

I can happily work with either NEF files or DNG.  I wonder if you guys have any preference/suggestion for the long run, should I convert to DNG or keep working with NEF?


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## Hoggy (Oct 19, 2015)

Larion476 said:


> I can happily work with either NEF files or DNG.  I wonder if you guys have any preference/suggestion for the long run, should I convert to DNG or keep working with NEF?



Now that's a hot topic.  My personal preference is convert to DNG.  The single biggest reason is the image data file verification feature - it has saved me many times, and I even converted my old JPG's for that reason.  The second biggest is that I strip them of their original embedded full-size JPG preview - which I have no use of - saving a fair bit of space there as well.


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