# Dark print



## rclanger (Jan 21, 2014)

I calibrated my monitor using the Spyder4Express and saw a big change on my new LG wide screen monitor. I have a HP C7200 Photosmart inkjet. In the print module the Spyder profile is specified.

The 8X10 print is darker than the image on screen. I thought it should be much closer to the screen image. 

I know that the printer is old, might that be the problem?


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## clee01l (Jan 21, 2014)

Prints (reflective media) will almost always be darker than the image viewed on a monitor (Transmittive media)  It is for this reason that LR implemented a soft-proofing feature in the develop module a few versions ago. Soft-proofing will permit you to emulate the characteristics of the printer and the paper being used so that you can create a printed version that will agree reasonably well with the soft-proofed version displayed on the screen.


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## Tony Jay (Jan 21, 2014)

Just to enlarge on Cletus' post.

Although monitor calibration is very important the profile so created is not the one that you want to use in softproofing.
As Cletus has said when softproofing the ICC profile that one wants to use is the printer/paper profile reflecting the paper and printer that one is using.

In addition, a common newbie error when printing is to have the monitor luminance set too high for one's editing environment - this invariably leads to dark prints. I set my monitor to a luminance of 95 cd/m2 but the default is 140 cd/m2. Exactly what luminance is ideal of your editing environment is a matter of trial and error.

Tony Jay


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## robosolo (Jan 21, 2014)

rclanger said:


> I calibrated my monitor using the Spyder4Express and saw a big change on my new LG wide screen monitor. I have a HP C7200 Photosmart inkjet. In the print module the Spyder profile is specified.
> 
> The 8X10 print is darker than the image on screen. I thought it should be much closer to the screen image.
> 
> I know that the printer is old, might that be the problem?



It's not only 'dark prints' that you might want to address since you've taken the steps to calibrate you monitor.
As others have indicated, lowering the luminescence level to as close as you can get to 90 cd/m2 is important.  Most monitors just can't get that low but get it as low as you can.
There are two other values that you can change with most calibration software: gamma and Kelvin temperature. Try changing the gamma from the standard 2.2 to 1.8 and try lowering the Kelvin temperature (sometimes referred to as Target White Point) from the standard D65 (6500 deg K) to D55 (5500 deg K). You can experiment with these value changes and see if it improves how your prints match your monitor. Ultimately the goal is to get your prints as close as possible to what you see on the screen. You can never match the colors and brightness perfectly, but you can get pleasingly close.
soloryb


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## rclanger (Jan 22, 2014)

I thank you for all the suggestions but there are too many of them. So before I get going and make all these changes I am thinking that there might be a correct order to do them. For example if I make changes manually when I recalibrate the monitor will the manual changes previously made be reversed?

Is there a specific order that must be maintained? Will any of these settings effect, undo, another? 

Thanks for all your help and advice.


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## clee01l (Jan 22, 2014)

rclanger said:


> I thank you for all the suggestions but there are too many of them.


You have been given two separate suggestions The one to do first is to calibrate your monitor.  Lowering the Luminescence or choosing a lower temp white point should be first.  It was my assumption that you had achieved this when you said that you calibrated your monitor.  The next suggestion (soft-proof) is what will get you the print color that you wish.  Remember that adding more ink to a white piece of paper will make the result darker.  Matte paper absorbs ink where as Glossy repels it.  So an ICC profile for matte paper will call for a different amount of color to be needed to achieve the same color response as glossy.  For this reason you need to soft proof with a color profile that matches the characteristics of both your printer and the paper that you are using.


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## rclanger (Jan 23, 2014)

QUOTE=clee01l;143550]The one to do first is to calibrate your monitor.  Lowering the Luminescence or choosing a lower temp white point should be first.  It was my assumption that you had achieved this when you said that you calibrated your monitor. [/QUOTE]

Are you saying if I calibrated I don't need to lower the Luminescence or adjust the white point? 

Sorry but I am a bit confused. A simple numbered list I think would help.


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## clee01l (Jan 23, 2014)

rclanger said:


> lower the Luminescence or adjust the white point?
> 
> Sorry but I am a bit confused. A simple numbered list I think would help.


Those are things you can choose during calibration.  You can run the calibration process again and set the luminescence to 90-100 (if this is a possibility) and then choose 5500ºK (D55) instead of 6500ºK (D65) for your WP..  you will get a new calibration and your screen will not be as bright.  (i.e more like paper)  Or you can accept the calibration that you have now (we don't know what luminance or WP you chose the first time. It might be OK)  Once you have the screen producing the results that you want then you need to use the soft proofing function in LR to emulate the response of the printer and paper.


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## rclanger (Jan 24, 2014)

Thanks Cletus,
I have a NVIDIA video card and changed the monitor to use the cards settings and not the Windows default. There are sliders to customize settings but I am not sure what to choose. One noticeable difference was the monitor lightened overall. 

I then calibrated again. The Spyder4Express has very few options. I normally just leave the default values. 

I have not printed a picture as of yet so I don't know if what I have done will make any difference.


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## clee01l (Jan 24, 2014)

rclanger said:


> I have not printed a picture as of yet so I don't know if what I have done will make any difference.


You are probably not going to see a big difference until you softproof for your printer and paper.


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## rclanger (Jan 24, 2014)

I read a little about softproofing. The main thing I got from it is the process seems to be for the photograph that is being worked on as opposed to a setting. Will I have to softproof every picture before I print it?


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## clee01l (Jan 24, 2014)

rclanger said:


> ...Will I have to softproof every picture before I print it?


Just the ones you want to resemble what you see on the monitor.


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## LouieSherwin (Jan 26, 2014)

rclanger said:


> I calibrated my monitor using the Spyder4Express and saw a big change on my new LG wide screen monitor. I have a HP C7200 Photosmart inkjet. *In the print module the Spyder profile is specified.*
> 
> The 8X10 print is darker than the image on screen. I thought it should be much closer to the screen image.
> 
> I know that the printer is old, might that be the problem?



Hi,

I was just reading this discussion and I think is see your problem (see bold text above). Are you in fact selecting the new monitor profile in the Lightroom Print Module as you stated? 

If so this definitely *not* what you want to do and almost certainly the reason for your problem getting a good looking print. The profile that you use for your monitor is completely different from the profiles that you will want to use for your printer. 

Profiles for printing are always specific to the printer and the paper being used like glossy, matte or luster for example. The printer manufacturer usually supplies a set of generic profiles for each printer as part of the print driver install or available as download. Because your printer is more of an office printer there may not be any special profiles as are provided for the higher end "photo" printers. 

If there are not any generic printer profiles available from HP then I suspect that you may get good results by trying sRGB as your print profile. I know that this is the default color space for my HP LaserJet CP1025 color printer. 

-louie


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## rclanger (Jan 27, 2014)

I have attempted to soft proof the picture I have been working with. After checking the soft proof option. I click the "out of gamut" right icon button to see what happened. Nothing! Clicking the left made no difference either. With the picture soft proofing does nothing.

I did make some adjustments and improved the photo on screen. When I printed it the result was, at best, slightly darker then the very first print.

I have no idea how to find either the printer or paper setting needed to get a decent print. Following the directions from  the book "Adobe Photoshop Lightroom 5 book for Digital Photographers" I used the setting Adobe RGB profile.

I just tried again. Changed the setting on the printer to Adobe RGB 1998 and the Lightroom setting to "Managed by Printer". Result is a print that seems exactly like the others and nothing like what I see on the monitor.


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## Tony Jay (Jan 27, 2014)

rclanger said:


> I have attempted to soft proof the picture I have been working with. After checking the soft proof option. I click the "out of gamut" right icon button to see what happened. Nothing! Clicking the left made no difference either. With the picture soft proofing does nothing.
> 
> I did make some adjustments and improved the photo on screen. When I printed it the result was, at best, slightly darker then the very first print.
> 
> ...



Exactly, because what you are doing is NOT softproofing for the printer/paper combination that you are using.
You will have to download the ICC profile that exactly matches the paper/printer combination that you are using.
Check the exact paper type that you are using and then go to the paper manufacturers website.
There will be a part of the website dedicated to ICC profiles.
Find the profile that matches BOTH the paper and the printer (exact model).

It is also possible that there is no ICC profile for the paper/printer profile that you are wanting to use and you will need someone to make a custom profile for you.
Either way, without the appropriate ICC profile you will not be able to soft proof for your paper/printer combination.

Although not important until you have the right ICC profiles you cannot allow the "Managed by Printer" setting.
Either you do the colour management or the printer does.
Very strange results occur if 'double colour management' is allowed.

It is clear that you are at the very beginning of your journey in printing and colour management.
However a word of encouragement is in order: however confusing and complicated things appear now, in actual fact, there are only a relatively few key issues that need to be mastered to potentially produce world-class prints.
However these key issues need to be attacked in a systematic manner.

My very strong suggestion is to acquire a couple of excellent resources on printing and colour management.
Jeff Schewe has written two excellent books titled "The Digital Negative" and "The Digital Print".
These two books are arguably the best reference books on the subject available today.
However you need a workflow orientated resource that you can follow in real time.
Again Jeff Schewe (and Michael Reichmann) to the rescue with a video tutorial series called "Camera to Print and Screen".
It is available for download from the Luminous Landscape website.
After viewing the video series you will be away, the books cover the same material in substantially greater depth and are very useful for ongoing reference.

Tony Jay


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## LouieSherwin (Jan 28, 2014)

Hi,

When you say the print is "darker" is it little darker or is it "muddy" dark where all the shadows are blocked up? 

Perhaps try the following. Export the image as a JPG to your hard disk and select sRGB as the output color space for that export. Then print the resulting file directly from the Windows. I'm curious if that makes a qualitative difference.

-louie


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## JimHess43 (Jan 29, 2014)

One of the problems that is probably being dealt with is that HP doesn't provide printer/paper profiles. At least none of the HP printers I have had use them. I haven't even been able to turn off color management in the printer. So it kind of makes it difficult to get a good match. I have the choice of Color Smart RGB or Adobe RGB, and that's it. That's why I finally purchased a new Canon printer. It seemed like I had to print a small proof print of each image I wanted printed in order to evaluate the results. Maybe your printer is different, but I was extremely frustrated.

If your printer has the same behavior, make sure you instruct Lightroom that the printer manages the color, not Lightroom. If you choose to have Lightroom do it, then your prints are being double managed. And that can cause headaches.


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## rclanger (Jan 29, 2014)

Thanks everyone for their comments.

Tony - Thanks for your advice and encouragement. I have the feeling all the printers I have are HP, designed and purchased for a home office and I just need to bite the bullet buy a printer just for photograph printing.

Louie - I tried printing from a JPG using the default Windows picture viewer. The print is exactly the same. I think just for giggles I am going to take the file to Walmart and check the results.

Jim - I agree. I have searched the Internet and found one ICC profile for my HP printer available from a company in Europe. I am guessing in US they want 20 US per profile. 

I am going to open a new thread to get recommendations for printers.

Again thanks to everyone for their time and efforts.


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