# Do we like the current set of subforums, or do we want them split another way?



## Victoria Bampton (Jul 13, 2011)

We were talking some time ago about whether it's worth splitting into  topic based subforums rather than the huge General Discussion vs.  Troubleshooting (which still ends up tangled together).  

How do we feel  the current subforum split is working?  Here's the current selection: http://www.lightroomqueen.com/community/forum.php

I do a "what's  new" search across the whole board, so it doesn't worry me if we have 2  or 20 subforums where people are posting, but what about you guys?  

We  talked some time ago about splitting into topics such as 

Library & Metadata
Develop
Output
Catalogs & File Management
Workflow
Is that worth considering further, or leave them as they are?  

Or do we want to split into 

a welcoming Beginners forum
a General forum
an Advanced forum for more complex topics
or something along those lines?

Does anyone have any thoughts on the subject?


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## Bruce J (Jul 13, 2011)

I do the same as you, I click the "What's New" button every day and ignore the individual forums.  Which is fine until I go to start a new thread.  Then, I'm faced with the decision as to which forum to put it in.  I don't post nearly as often as some members, but I've been hanging around this and other forums for a long time and I've come to the conclusion that multiple forums is a lot like multiple LR catalogs; the fewer you can get away with, the better off you are.  How do you decide which topic is a "beginner" topic?  How do you know ahead of time where a thread is going to lead?  Unless you can make a clean separation between topics that *anyone *can understand (ie. work images vs. personal), I don't think proliferating the forums is a good idea.

Along the lines of using metadata to find images instead of multiple catalogs, how about developing a fixed set of tags that can be selected for each thread?  I'm thinking tags for topic areas (LR modules, etc.), tags for perceived level of difficulty or complication, tags for specific OS or LR version, tags for tips vs. problems, etc.  Of course, each thread could have multiple tags.  With metadata for threads and a good way of searching those metadata and who needs multiple forums?  You could make your own custom forum on the fly with a simple search.  Don't know what the difficulties of implementing would be, but I would find it much more useful.  Cheers,


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## Replytoken (Jul 13, 2011)

Victoria Bampton said:


> We were talking some time ago about whether it's worth splitting into topic based subforums rather than the huge General Discussion vs. Troubleshooting (which still ends up tangled together).
> 
> How do we feel the current subforum split is working? Here's the current selection: http://www.lightroomqueen.com/community/forum.php
> 
> ...



Thanks for staying with this issue, Victoria, although there are days I think that a week "time out" could do us all some good so we can catch our breath.  In short, I see one issue, the layout of the forum subtopics, being driven by two sub-issues - meeting the needs of beginners, and meeting the needs of those who would like a place to work/discuss/share LR techniques.  And while I search for current topics when I vist the forum, I know that new members will act as youhave described, as I do it myself when visiting new forums.  So, it is probably not a bad idea to have less subforums for beginners, as they usually choose to post "where the action is".  I think that the kit is a great addition, and it certianly can evolve over time as need be.  Regarding a place for techniques and sharing, I am not certain what that should look like in the long run because there are many factors that need to be considered (e.g. moderation, bandwidth, editiorial content, etc.).  so, maybe we should try to walk a bit before we try to run.  I suggest that for now, we leave the general structure of the forum topics alone, with the exception of one addition/modification, and we keep tweaking the kit and "beginner's first experience" here as needed.

The one excpetion I am suggesting related to the idea of sharing/discussing technique.  I suggest that we add one subforum that would be a "sibling" to our Tips & Tricks.  For now, we can keep it simple and concentrate the discussions on techniques relating to developing images, somehting that tips & Tricks does not necessarily address.  This would allow all users to either share or ask how other members handle development issues.  For instance, "How do I salvage an underexposed image?" or "Tips for smoothing out wrinkles in portraits".  Yes, I am sure that topics that belong in this type of sub-forum could be posted in ther sub-forums, and that's OK.  but, it would at least allow those of us who are looking for "a bit more" to have a place to post.  This suggestion is certainly open to tweaking, and all comments are welcome.

Respectfully,

--Ken


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## johnbeardy (Jul 13, 2011)

I do the same as you, so it doesn't matter to me.


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## clee01l (Jul 13, 2011)

My Vote says "I have a better idea"  even perhaps if I don't and don't like the other choices.  I've never liked the *Lightroom General Discussion *and* Lightroom Troubleshooting & Bug Report *forums generating 80% of the posts.  I don't think we need a *Lightroom General Discussion *at all.  

For beginners I think the following forum topics might be useful:

Beginner Questions (a place to ask a question when you don't know anything)
Cataloging/Workflow Options & Issues
Import Options & Issues
Export Options & Issues
Develop Options & Issues
Slideshow/Print/Web Options & Issues


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## b_gossweiler (Jul 13, 2011)

So do I (read all unread posts), so it doesn't matter to me.

 I think the question is can (new) users decide where to post easily. Also, if splitting into technical areas, there would need to be some kind of "General Odd Behaviour" subforum for things like "does not start".

Beat


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## Victoria Bampton (Jul 13, 2011)

Ok, interesting.  It sounds like all of the regulars tend to look at a composite what's new view, so it's not going to be a major issue for any of us.  If that's true (and if anyone disagrees, please feel free to pipe up!), let's consider this from the point of view of new members and those looking for information.

If you're a newbie trying to find existing information on a particular subject, then the current mass of threads in the General Discussion and Troubleshooting forums are overwhelming at best.  I like Ken's idea of the tagging, although I'm not sure how viable that is with the software, so I'll look into that further.  If the tagging isn't a good option, then I'm leaning towards topic based subforums, although the specific subforum names would need further thought and discussion.  

If you're a newbie trying to post for the first time, then I'm really not sure.  Splitting by module would be quite obvious to most newbies, IMHO, but that doesn't solve the issue that Paige brought up recently, of a separate newbies forum.

I agree with Bruce, that we don't want to end up with hundreds of subforums, so limiting to very broad subjects would be the way to go, if we head in that direction.  

Feature requests could be merged in with the topic based forums quite easily - that would also solve the problem of people requesting things that already exist, or turning up here to demand that Adobe add a feature.

The Advertising forums, I would suggest, could be merged into a single advertising forum.  They have all of 3 threads each at the moment, and are just taking up space in the forum list.

As Ken said, we could probably all use some time to bounce these ideas around, in order to come up with the best solution possible, so no decisions for a couple of weeks at least.  Very interested to hear any further comments though.


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## Replytoken (Jul 13, 2011)

Victoria Bampton said:


> I like Ken's idea of the tagging, although I'm not sure how viable that is with the software, so I'll look into that further. If the tagging isn't a good option, then I'm leaning towards topic based subforums, although the specific subforum names would need further thought and discussion.
> 
> ================
> 
> I agree with Bruce, that we don't want to end up with hundreds of subforums, so limiting to very broad subjects would be the way to go, if we head in that direction.



Hi Victoria,

I think that you have Bruce and I confused, but that's OK, my mother had the same problem for years! :bluegrin:

--Ken


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## Victoria Bampton (Jul 13, 2011)

Replytoken said:


> I think that you have Bruce and I confused, but that's OK, my mother had the same problem for years! :bluegrin:



I'm so sorry Ken (and Bruce!!!), I said I'm brain dead at the moment!!!


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## DonRicklin (Jul 13, 2011)

First off, I too read by "New Posts" so subforums can be what ever works for the forum users. 

If we do add new breakdowns and sub forums it would be handy, as Digital Grin forum does, to have an easily found stick thread: "Post your request to Forum Moderators here" so that lay users and answers (Gurus, etc) can post to suggest if threads should be moved to another subforum or not. Other requests like username changes, deletion of duplicate posts and the like could be entertained though an such an ongoing thread, that all MOds could keep a general eye on. 

I know some of this admin work is done through post/thread reports, but some may not see that as a way to handle such Moderation considerations. 

Just a thought that may need it's own thread...

If so feel free, Victoria, to move it elsewhere.



Don


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## clee01l (Jul 13, 2011)

DonRicklin said:


> First off, I too read by "New Posts" so subforums can be what ever works for the forum users.


  If you are looking at posted questions with the thought about providing an answer, then "What's New" is most efficient.  OTOH, a new forum user is here likely because they have at least one question and want to browse the topics.  So a sub-forum structure aimed toward beginners seems most appropriate.


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## wblink (Jul 13, 2011)

Hi,

I just click "new post" (almost) every day, so reading is no problem for me.
I can imagine it is hard to decide WHERE to post a new topic. 
Following LR's rules (import, export, library ao) seems like a good idea to me.

You know, you (not me, having another long road ahead)) are so very experienced in LR that questions from starters can seem to be too easy (no offense ment, it's rational!): they are NOT! Some questions turn me on (and that is quite good for a guy of 59 years , so I can answer them.

OldGuysRule they say: grin.


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## DonRicklin (Jul 14, 2011)

clee01l said:


> If you are looking at posted questions with the thought about providing an answer, then "What's New" is most efficient.  OTOH, a new forum user is here likely because they have at least one question and want to browse the topics.  So a sub-forum structure aimed toward beginners seems most appropriate.


That's what I mean by Forum users, beginners and others coming for answers, as apposed to all us Gurus, answerers, Mods who don't so much care about the layout.

Don


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## Bruce J (Jul 14, 2011)

Replytoken said:


> Hi Victoria,
> 
> I think that you have Bruce and I confused, but that's OK, my mother had the same problem for years! :bluegrin:
> 
> --Ken



Ken - Your mother must have been related to mine! :nod:


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## Replytoken (Jul 14, 2011)

Bruce J said:


> Ken - Your mother must have been related to mine! :nod:



Well, I do have a brother Bruce who lives in NY. Perhaps Victoria is our long lost mother?!! 

Actually, when my mother called out the wrong name (or names, or pieces of our names), my brothers and I always seemed to know who she wanted.  Don't ask me to explain it, though.

--Ken


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## Bruce J (Jul 14, 2011)

Replytoken said:


> Actually, when my mother called out the wrong name (or names, or pieces of our names), my brothers and I always seemed to know who she wanted.  Don't ask me to explain it, though.



I have three daughters - they always know.  Maybe it's the guilt thing .  Meanwhile, :focus:
Cheers,


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## Joana (Oct 18, 2011)

As a newbie here myself, I think it would be helpful to have sub forums. On the other hand, I don't think it would be fair to make things more complicated for the vets here. As much as I would enjoy things being set up so that they are easier for myself, I actually think that the more dedicated members should take priority. I could use some advice here. My computer has been having difficulty running the software lately, so I am really considering buying a new one. I was wondering if it would be worth it to hold out for hhgregg black friday, or if I should just go ahead and spring for one now? What do you guys think?


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## Kiwigeoff (Oct 18, 2011)

Joana said:


> As a newbie here myself, I think it would be helpful to have sub forums. On the other hand, I don't think it would be fair to make things more complicated for the vets here. As much as I would enjoy things being set up so that they are easier for myself, I actually think that the more dedicated members should take priority.


Welcome to the forum Joana, hope you find us vets a useful source of information!
Thanks for the input your views are just the type we ought to take into account.

Enjoy!


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## MarkNicholas (Oct 19, 2011)

Actually I dont think that sub-forums matter too much. I always use the "New posts since last Visit" search and that throws up all threads from all sub-forums. I think that sub-forums are less important in much the same way that folders are less important in LR itself !! Perhaps we can do away with sub-forums altogether and just use keywords 

Having said that if we were going to add any new sub-forums I would suggest the following titles :

1. LR keeps changing my nice contrasty previews to a soft mushy mess.
2. LR has lost my photos.
3. LR won't import my photos.


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## b_gossweiler (Mar 1, 2012)

With LR4 on the at the horizon, I think this question might deserve some more thoughts. I.e.,  I can see lots of book or map related questions coming up, which might not necessarily be of interest to people who don't use them.

Beat


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## johnbeardy (Mar 2, 2012)

Maybe a new one for Book? I'm not sure there's enough in Map to merit one.


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## b_gossweiler (Mar 2, 2012)

johnbeardy said:


> Maybe a new one for Book? I'm not sure there's enough in Map to merit one.



I agree, Map could be considered later if posts swamp the general area. I just thought about Map also because I suspect a minority of users will really use it. But really expect a thunderstorm of book questions ....

Beat


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## Victoria Bampton (Mar 2, 2012)

Hmmmm, good point.  

Ok, what if we did something along the lines of:

Image Management - Import, Catalogs, Library, Metadata, Map
Image Editing - Develop (expecting more questions there too, with the new PV2012?)
Output - Export, Email, Book, Slideshow, Print, Web

Thoughts?


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## Denis de Gannes (Mar 2, 2012)

I like this approach.


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## DonRicklin (Mar 2, 2012)

Denis de Gannes said:


> I kike this approach.


I agree! Good set of subforums!

Don


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## Happy Haggis (Mar 2, 2012)

I like the suggested sub forums. I just wonder if 'Image Management' is could be a bit misleading? Could not export be classified as Image Management as well?
I really like the idea of a Develop section. I know when I first started using LR I was unsure of it's capabilities and tended to edit in PS. It took a while to realise that I only needed PS on rare occasions and the joy of cutting down on image files cluttering up my hard drive.


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## Victoria Bampton (Mar 2, 2012)

Happy Haggis said:


> I like the suggested sub forums. I just wonder if 'Image Management' is could be a bit misleading? Could not export be classified as Image Management as well?



How about Organizing Photos then? Any other ideas for names?

Stuff will end up in the wrong forums a bit where there's a crossover but that's not a big deal.


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## b_gossweiler (Mar 2, 2012)

Victoria Bampton said:


> Ok, what if we did something along the lines of:
> 
> Image Management - Import, Catalogs, Library, Metadata, Map
> Image Editing - Develop (expecting more questions there too, with the new PV2012?)
> ...



I like the structure as suggested, but also find "Image Management" a little too scientific (alghough correct). But I can't think of anything more "down to earth" right now 

Output should contain Publish as a keyword also.

Beat


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## clee01l (Mar 2, 2012)

I like "Image Organization" as being more descriptive than "Image Management".  An Beat is correct "Publish Services" should be included in Output I think it also should be called "Publish Services" to make a clear distinction between the LR Publishing Services and Book Publishing.


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## Hal P Anderson (Mar 2, 2012)

I don't know...

It's beginning to sound like the huge selection one sees when they go to buy toothpaste. 

I'd go for something like:

--Problems.
--Questions.
--Introductions.
--Off topic.

Hal


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## Victoria Bampton (Mar 4, 2012)

LOL Hal!  Ok, I won't add a toothpaste aisle 

Any final comments before I try to make a decision on this?


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## clee01l (Mar 4, 2012)

Can you summarize the 'final' decision?   A full list of proposed subforums just to make sure everyone is on the same page perhaps?


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## Victoria Bampton (Mar 4, 2012)

I would if I'd figured them out! 

I'm inclined to archive the General Discussion and Troubleshooting forums, so we don't end up with a shed-load of sub forums.

So the Lightroom forums would be subject-based, something like:


Managing Photos (Import, Catalogs, Library, Metadata, Map)
Developing your Photos
Output Modules (Export, Email, Book, Slideshow, Print, Web)
Workflow Discussion
Extending Lightroom (External Editors, Plugins, Photoshop)
Tips & Tricks
or perhaps


Catalogs & File Management (Import, Files, Folders, Backups)
Organizing Photos with Metadata (Library, Map & Metadata)
Develop
Output Modules (Export, Email, Book, Slideshow, Print, Web)
Extending Lightroom (External Editors, Plugins, Photoshop)
Workflow Discussion
Tips & Tricks

I am inclined to go more topic-based, but I'm very open to suggestions on what the divisions should be.  Top of my mind is the structure of my book, and the way that's divided up.


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## Brad Snyder (Mar 5, 2012)

+1 Vic


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## Kiwigeoff (Mar 5, 2012)

With the impending onslaught of new users that LR4 will create with all the stunning new bits would it be a good idea for a "getting familiar with LR" section for newbie type posts???


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## Victoria Bampton (Mar 5, 2012)

I wondered about that Geoff, but people have enough trouble deciding where to put their posts, without wondering whether it's a newbie question!

Brad - any preference to first set/second set?  Or anyone else?


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## clee01l (Mar 5, 2012)

Victoria Bampton said:


> I wondered about that Geoff, but people have enough trouble deciding where to put their posts, without wondering whether it's a newbie question!
> 
> Brad - any preference to first set/second set?  Or anyone else?


My preference is the first (fewer by one) grouping of subforums.  "Getting familiar with LR" is still going to be a question about one of the six sub areas.  I think it would be nice to have it all in place before LR4 is released and there is an onslaught of new users with old questions about a new version.  (no pressure there eh, Victoria?)


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## Bruce J (Mar 5, 2012)

I'll preface my comments by saying that it doesn't really matter to me most of the time because I tend to use the "What's New" button each day to scan all of the forum sections.  

However, I seem to have a hard time deciding on an appropriate sub-forum every time I decide to ask a question, both on this and other forums (fora?).  With that in mind, I would advocate for the smallest number of sub-forums possible.  And, I still think there is a need for some sort of 'general questions' sub-forum.  In your proposed sub-forum sets, where would one put questions about downloading LR, installing LR, LR crashes on start, etc?  

I think I mentioned a long time ago that this questions always reminds me of the, "Why use metadata instead of folders to organize your images?"  Some questions fall easily into a simple categorization, others don't or they fall into multiple categories.  I would find it much more useful to have a small set of classification terms to be applied to each question.  One could apply one, many, or none of the tags to each question (either the original poster, a moderator, or a responder).  This would make it easier to make threads that wander in topic remain findable and ease the burden on moderators to move topics that seem to have been started in the wrong sub-forum.  Then, if one wanted to see questions on a particular topic, one could search on all questions with that particular tag.  But, maybe the forum software wouldn't support this sort of structure.  Anyway, just my $.02 again, and we all know what that's worth.  Cheers, and thanks again for all the effort you put into this forum,


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## b_gossweiler (Mar 5, 2012)

My vote goes to the first set, Victoria, but take your time, days do not have more then 24 hours (even in the land of GMT), and I guess you're using 27 already in preparation for LR4!

Beat


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## Chris_M (Mar 5, 2012)

I'd like to enter a vote for set 1 also.


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## Brad Snyder (Mar 6, 2012)

I really couldn't choose, so Set 1 it is, and as Betty Slocum says "I am unanimous in that!"


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## Victoria Bampton (Mar 6, 2012)

clee01l said:


> I think it would be nice to have it all in place before LR4 is released and there is an onslaught of new users with old questions about a new version.  (no pressure there eh, Victoria?)



LOL  Er, yes, time was even tighter than you realised!

Ok, new forums are live.  The old ones I've shifted into an archive section.  They're still open at the moment, but any new threads will be moved into the new forum and the archived ones will be closed when the replies to existing threads die down.

I'm going back to bed as I've been up since 4.  Let me know what you think, and if you can find any better wording for the forum descriptions, I'd love to hear it.  We can always go back and tweak the forums when we see how they're working.


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## Kiwigeoff (Mar 6, 2012)

Nice job Victoria!! Thank you!!


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## Happy Haggis (Mar 6, 2012)

I agree, well done Victoria and thanks. I hope all you problem solvers (I don't like 'Expert' for people I respect. Long ago, I heard a definition which put me off. Ex is a has-been and spurt is a drip under pressure! ) have flexible fingers, I suspect they'll be needed a lot in the near future.


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## Victoria Bampton (Mar 6, 2012)

I think you're right Trevor!  With the new pricing, we're expecting a lot of new LR4 users.


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## b_gossweiler (Mar 6, 2012)

Thanks, Victoria!


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## clee01l (Mar 6, 2012)

Victoria Bampton said:


> LOL  Er, yes, time was even tighter than you realised!...


 Well I had an inkling, since a German online book store was already advertising LR4 for sale to be shipped in 4 days (meaning sometime this week).  

Thank you for your herculean effort to get this forum updated and find time to devote to getting your own updated book out the door.


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## Brad Snyder (Mar 6, 2012)

Amazon outed it about a week ago, but that came down in a hurry!


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## quantum (Mar 8, 2012)

Where should I post problems in LR4? Where is the troubleshooting forum?


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## Victoria Bampton (Mar 8, 2012)

What kind of problem?  They can go in the topic-based forums now, and there's a little line under each one with clues about where to put different topics.  Don't worry if you put it in the wrong one, we can always move it while everyone finds their way round.


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## tzalman (Mar 8, 2012)

The new setup is excellent. A big "Chapeau!" for Victoria.


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## Victoria Bampton (Mar 8, 2012)

Oh good!  I'm pleased it's working ok.


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## quantum (Mar 9, 2012)

Liked the old sytem of forums. Why change?


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## Victoria Bampton (Mar 9, 2012)

A few reasons:

We're expecting more traffic because LR4's halved in price.  That means more threads, and heavier server load when they're all grouped in a couple of forums. Splitting helps with that.

The topic based forums are easier for new users to find existing threads instead of immediately posting the same problem over and over again. 

And it means searches will be much more focused - again, better for server load and a better chance of getting the right result.


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## Linwood Ferguson (Mar 9, 2012)

There's a fair amount of ambiguity if the issue being posted is something like "there's a bug in ICC profile handling in soft proofs".  Is that part of output, part of developing, part of workflow.  OK, it's IN develop, but you get the idea.   I really wonder if there shouldn't be a "known bugs" and if something is asked that ends up not being a bug it gets moved to another forum, then collectively what remains is where people can look for bugs (or "bad features" perhaps).


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## Victoria Bampton (Mar 9, 2012)

The official feature request/bug report forum is still the best place for true bugs, because they're more likely to get fixed there. 

There will still be some ambiguity as to where to put things, but we can move anything that's in a really wrong place. It's not the end of the world. Troubleshooting stuff used to end up in General Discussion too.


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## clee01l (Mar 9, 2012)

Victoria Bampton said:


> ...Troubleshooting stuff used to end up in General Discussion too.


 More often than in any Troubleshooting forum.  Still, while the official Bug report forum at Adobe is the only useful place to register these bugs, I would like to see a running list of "Real" bugs somewhere.  A lot of people are seeing bugs that are probably a reflection of how they are (mis)using LR and converting the catalog.  Adobe does not want to publish such a list because they don't want to admit that there are bugs.  Perhaps a summary some where here would be useful. Especially if there are workarounds to help folks until Adobe issues a bug fix release.   The real bugs that I see reported seem to be related to converting large catalogs (Something that was not tested in the beta release). I've also discovered some others that are not show-stoppers but annoying none the less.


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## Victoria Bampton (Mar 9, 2012)

clee01l said:


> I would like to see a running list of "Real" bugs somewhere. .



A list of new LR4 bugs, or a general list of bugs? The bug report forum's the best bet for getting an overview of all the bugs in the program. I'd do an LR4 bug list at some point but I don't have time right now.


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## clee01l (Mar 9, 2012)

I think what I keep wishing for is a list of those (new since 3/6) that have been vetted.  I read a lot of pseudo bugs that just seem to cloud the picture.


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## keithz829 (Mar 11, 2012)

As a new member, I felt compelled to answer that it didn't matter to me.  Perhaps as I discover more of the topics in the various categories, I may feel differently.


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## clee01l (Mar 13, 2012)

> (Victoria) ...maybe we need a more general program subforum too, for installation and performance issues. What do you guys thinks?


Perhaps this is an area that we should have anticipated last week, especially, with the impending release of LR4. "Lightroom Installation and Performance" would make a good sub forum dealing with the mechanics of the application addressing only the program and not its functionality.


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## Victoria Bampton (Mar 13, 2012)

Sounds like a good plan to me.  We now have that extra forum, and I'll shift the existing threads over later, unless one of the other mods gets to it first.


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