# Stability Issues - Repeated Crashing



## jgwalter (Jun 18, 2021)

I am at my wits end with this, so I am hoping that someone can offer some insight, and perhaps a solution.

My Lightroom Classic catalog is constantly crashing, sometimes just randomly going to a blank screen, but more often it seems that it crashes during the backup process when I am exiting the program.  On blank screen crashes where I get the 'Report to Adobe' splash screen full of code, the program usually will restart, but when it crashes during the backup process, it usually produces a corrupt catalog message requiring a repair.  But, the repair rarely works, requiring my going to a recent backup file.

I have spent hours and hours on the phone with Adobe over several calls, obviously without success.  They just go through the motions of going to a backup, and have offered little insight into what could be the problem.  They showed no interest in the code screens.

I am running the latest version of Lightroom Classic as I am a 'full suite' subscriber.  I primarily run this on an iMac (late 2015) 27" with 32gb of memory and a clean installation of Big Sur updated to 11.4.  Catalog files are located on an external 1 TB SSD.  Image files are located on an 8 TB external drive.  About 5 TB of files, with about half in a Dropbox folder that is linked to a 4 TB external drive on my MacBook Pro.  Attaching the Catalog SSD to the MBPro works somewhat better, but crashes there as well.  It is still running Catalina.  LR would not run at all on my iMac when it was running Catalina.  (Never knew why)

Besides editing, I use LR as a 'digital asset management' tool, so I am currently tracking about 175,000 images.  I have spent many, many hours adding a wealth of metadata, and of course a LOT of image editing.  Starting over with a new catalog, as an Adobe support person suggested, is not really an option.

My workflow had image files placed in descriptive-named folders.  Searchable through keywords, but totally no browsable.  This is somewhat mirrored with a very browsable hierarchy of collection folders that contain every image in the catalog at least once, often more.  I also have several Publish Collections for several websites and blogs.

I use LR Mobile primarily to edit iPhone images and import them into my LR Classic archive.  It works great for that purpose, but managing it is very difficult leading to lots of syncing problems.  I've cleaned most of that up, and while the syncing issues have subsided, it doesn't appear to be the cause of the crashing as I thought it might be.

I am embarking on a large project of digitizing a mountain of slides, negatives, and prints.  So, this needs to get resolved.  I hope someone can help?

Thanks.


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## Victoria Bampton (Jun 18, 2021)

So it's just the program crashing, not the whole computer? Have you tried the standard troubleshooting steps?  Standard Lightroom Troubleshooting Steps | The Lightroom Queen

Also, since the catalogs SSD seems to be a theme across both computers, I might try copying the catalog to an internal drive and running it from there as a test, and setting the internal drive as the backup destination too. My first thought when I read your description was a problem with that drive.


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## jgwalter (Jun 18, 2021)

Victoria Bampton said:


> So it's just the program crashing, not the whole computer? Have you tried the standard troubleshooting steps?  Standard Lightroom Troubleshooting Steps | The Lightroom Queen
> 
> Also, since the catalogs SSD seems to be a theme across both computers, I might try copying the catalog to an internal drive and running it from there as a test, and setting the internal drive as the backup destination too. My first thought when I read your description was a problem with that drive.



Thanks for the response.

1.  The whole computer DOES crash, but not often.  LR does not seem to be affected when this happens, other than to restart.

2.  I've tried some of the steps in your list of troubleshooting, but not all.  It is an older computer (2015), but seems to be working OK.  I don't use it for much else, but it often has several browser tabs open.

3.  I hadn't considered the SSD issue, as I recently started using it as a better method to switch between computers. (not to mention it being faster). For years, I placed the catalog files in a Dropbox folder to enable use on both computers.  The SSD eliminated the need to ensure file updating through Dropbox before switching. (never really a problem). Looking back, I don't think this problem started with the use of the SSD, but I could be wrong?  I just don't remember.  I'll give the old method a try.


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## Victoria Bampton (Jun 18, 2021)

I've got the same machine and it's randomly rebooting on a regular basis whether Lightroom's open or not, so I understand your frustration! 

Copying to the internal drive is just a test, if it carries on crashing, you've ruled out the SSD as the cause and can go back to using it. Figuring out what's going wrong is just a process of elimination, but the fact it happens on both computers narrows it down to elements that are the same on both.


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## jgwalter (Jun 18, 2021)

Victoria Bampton said:


> I've got the same machine and it's randomly rebooting on a regular basis whether Lightroom's open or not, so I understand your frustration!
> 
> Copying to the internal drive is just a test, if it carries on crashing, you've ruled out the SSD as the cause and can go back to using it. Figuring out what's going wrong is just a process of elimination, but the fact it happens on both computers narrows it down to elements that are the same on both.



Unfortunately, my Dropbox folder is on an external drive.  I'll try that first, then the iMac's internal, but moving the DB folder to the internal is not an option.


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## Victoria Bampton (Jun 18, 2021)

jgwalter said:


> Unfortunately, my Dropbox folder is on an external drive.  I'll try that first, then the iMac's internal, but moving the DB folder to the internal is not an option.


Copy it to the internal drive just long enough to see if it keeps crashing when it's stored on there too. This is not a permanent move, it might only take 10 minutes to find it still crashes on there too.


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## jgwalter (Jun 18, 2021)

Victoria Bampton said:


> Copy it to the internal drive just long enough to see if it keeps crashing when it's stored on there too. This is not a permanent move, it might only take 10 minutes to find it still crashes on there too.


Worked fine from both external and internal drives.  However, it will take more attempts to prove anything.  I'll work from internal drive for a bit to see if I can replicate the problem.  Previews file is small right now (about 35gb), but it will quickly outgrow the size of my internal drive.

I'd forgotten how incredibly slow this is, even from the internal.


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## Victoria Bampton (Jun 19, 2021)

Did you try running the backup that you said often triggered the crash too?


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## jgwalter (Jun 19, 2021)

Victoria Bampton said:


> Did you try running the backup that you said often triggered the crash too?


Yes, I run the backup each time I close the program.  Since switching to the internal, I've only had an opportunity to work on it a couple of times.  It opened, closed and backed up just fine.  I think it will take a few more tries to prove your theory about the SSD.   

I have no indication that the SSD is faulty otherwise.  It is a SanDisk 1 TB external, connected via a short USB cable.  It is connected through small extension that brings the USB ports in the rear, to the front.  Sometimes, I think those connections contribute to problems? 

BTW..... the program took about two minutes to open, opening to the folder that was displayed when it last closed.  Switching to a different folder took another two minutes of a spinning pinwheel.  Closing the program, and running the backup routine took a total of more than nine minutes.


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## Victoria Bampton (Jun 20, 2021)

Ohhhh yes, hubs are often a cause of issues, try the SSD plugged in directly to the computer and see if that works without crashing.


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## Gnits (Jun 20, 2021)

I have seen disk drives corrupt in front of my eyes when connected thru a hub.  Often, everything is ok when connected initially, but all usb connections are not captive and if the power source slips out (say when moving a keyboard) then there may not be enough power to keep devices working properly.


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## jgwalter (Jun 21, 2021)

Victoria Bampton said:


> Ohhhh yes, hubs are often a cause of issues, try the SSD plugged in directly to the computer and see if that works without crashing.





Gnits said:


> I have seen disk drives corrupt in front of my eyes when connected thru a hub.  Often, everything is ok when connected initially, but all usb connections are not captive and if the power source slips out (say when moving a keyboard) then there may not be enough power to keep devices working properly.


Technically a hub, but more of a short extension from back to front...... Sabrent 3-Port USB 3.0 Hub with Multi-In-1 Card Reader For iMac Slim Unibody 2012 or later (HB-IMCR) | HB-IMCR

Regardless, LR on the SSD crashed when connected directly to the rear port.   I'm using this SSD ....  SanDisk Extreme Pro® Portable SSD | Western Digital Store

I tested LR from my internal drive.  It worked fine, but VERY slow.  It did crash once on startup, but did not corrupt the catalog.  Ultimately, this method will not work, as the drive is not big enough to support cloud portability to my MacBook Pro (which has an even smaller internal drive).

I also tested LR from my Dropbox folder, which is on an 8 TB external drive, and where all of my image files are located, within a 3 TB Dropbox account. This is the method that I have used successfully for years, but moved away from it to the SSD method to improve performance and simplify the syncing issues between machines.  

The MBPro has an 4 TB external drive for this purpose.  The drives I use are.... 
On my iMac....... My Book | Western Digital Store 
On my MB Pro..... https://shop.westerndigital.com/pro...wd-my-passport-usb-3-0-hdd#WDBPKJ0040BBK-WESN 

The MBPro is connected directly, but the iMac is connected through this hub.....  Sabrent 36W 7-Port USB 3.0 Hub with Individual Power Switches and LEDs (HB-BUP7) | HB-BUP7   This hub has four additional, similar drives connected to it, as well as a two-bay 'toaster'.  All seem to work without error.

After all of this, I am guessing that my SSD is faulty.  It does get pretty warm when connected (being used or not), and I don't know if that is normal or not?

It seems from what I've read, that using an external SSD for this purpose (improved performance and portability between computers) is common practice.


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## clee01l (Jun 21, 2021)

jgwalter said:


> It seems from what I've read, that using an external SSD for this purpose (improved performance and portability between computers) is common practice.



Apple has dropped all ports except 1 or 2 Thunderbolt3 ports on their laptops. TB3 connectors use a daisy chain to connect multiple devices. All of the connected devices need to be self powered. 

It is the lack of internal device power that can cause the problems.


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## jgwalter (Jun 21, 2021)

clee01l said:


> Apple has dropped all ports except 1 or 2 Thunderbolt3 ports on their laptops. TB3 connectors use a daisy chain to connect multiple devices. All of the connected devices need to be self powered.
> 
> It is the lack of internal device power that can cause the problems.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure what you mean???   The Western Digital 4 TB Passport is powered through the USB-C connection on my MB Pro.  It seems to work fine.  The SanDisk 1 TB SSD is also powered through a USB, either USB-A (?) from the iMac, or USB-C to the MB Pro.  It does not work fine.

Are you saying the device has to have a separate power supply to function properly?  (as my 8 TB devices connected to my iMac)

Can you recommend a product?


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## clee01l (Jun 21, 2021)

jgwalter said:


> I'm not sure what you mean??? The Western Digital 4 TB Passport is powered through the USB-C connection on my MB Pro. It seems to work fine. The SanDisk 1 TB SSD is also powered through a USB, either USB-A (?) from the iMac, or USB-C to the MB Pro. It does not work fine.
> 
> Are you saying the device has to have a separate power supply to function properly? (as my 8 TB devices connected to my iMac)
> 
> Can you recommend a product?



I think the limit is 7 daisy chained TB3 devices They should all have their own separate power supply. You can connect one unpowered Dis drive directly to the TB3 port on your Mac. You might have enough power if you connected an unpowered Disk drive as #2 or #3 BUT you run the risk that it will fail or be unreliable due to power issues. 
A powered TB3 device has two TB3 ports (one in and one out). All of the unpowered TB3 disk drive that I have have only one TB3 port meaning that they need to be connected directly to the computer that is providing power


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## jgwalter (Jun 21, 2021)

clee01l said:


> I think the limit is 7 daisy chained TB3 devices They should all have their own separate power supply. You can connect one unpowered Dis drive directly to the TB3 port on your Mac. You might have enough power if you connected an unpowered Disk drive as #2 or #3 BUT you run the risk that it will fail or be unreliable due to power issues.
> A powered TB3 device has two TB3 ports (one in and one out). All of the unpowered TB3 disk drive that I have have only one TB3 port meaning that they need to be connected directly to the computer that is providing power
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I think you misread this thread?  Your response makes less sense to me than your first response.

My iMac has a Thunderbolt port (not sure what version), but my MacBook Pro does not.  It has 4 USB-C ports ONLY.

My goal here is to place my Lightroom catalog on an external SSD drive that can be swapped between my iMac & MacBookPro as needed.  My image files are in a 3 TB Dropbox account, locally on an 8 TB external on my iMac and a 4 TB external on my MB Pro.  The catalog links to them in each location, or on its own via Smart Previews.

The point of this entire thread is to determine if my current SSD is faulty (it appears it is), and what to replace it with.

I've moved back to my old method of placing the catalog in the Dropbox folder, which works fine.  But, I would like to improve the performance, and simplify the sync issues that this method creates.  The SSD solved those issues except for the crashing problem.


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## clee01l (Jun 21, 2021)

jgwalter said:


> I think you misread this thread? Your response makes less sense to me than your first response.
> 
> My iMac has a Thunderbolt port (not sure what version), but my MacBook Pro does not. It has 4 USB-C ports ONLY.
> 
> My goal here is to place my Lightroom catalog on an external SSD drive that can be swapped between my iMac & MacBookPro as needed.


I don’t think I mis read your original post about “crashing”. If you have a newer MBP, it has 4 TB3 ports. You can use USB-C devices in it as the port is identical in HW specification. 
Thunderbolt 1 & 2 uses a sideways “D” shaped port, the Thunderbolt 3 used the same port as USB-C. 

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201736Let me know which ports you have on each computer, and which model EHD. Then, I might be able to help you share one EHD with both computers without crashes.

Unpowered USB storage devices can be problematical. The problem gets worse if you ad in a USB unpowered hub. I think you will get better results and fewer crashed if you have a powered EHD, Preferably a TB3 EHD. This should answer your your question about sharing an EHD between two 

Your 2015 iMac probably has 2 TB2 ports. You can plug USB-C or TB3 devices into it with an adapter. You can only daisy chain TB2 devices to a TB2 port. While USB-C and TB3 ports have the same form factor. You can not plug a TB3 device into a USB-C port. While the opposite is true that you can plug a USB-C device into a TB3 port.


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## jgwalter (Jun 21, 2021)

My MacBook Pro is a 15" 2016.  Your link shows it has TB3 ports, but doesn't say how many.  However, it appears to have four according to its System Information.  The iMac is a 27" 5K Late 2015.  It appears to have 2 TB2 ports.

The SSD that I have is a Sandisk Extreme Pro 1 TB.  It has a USB-C connector, but includes a cable to connect to USB-A as well.  It, however, is the subject of this problem, crashing and corrupting constantly.

I'm beginning to wonder, however, if there is more to this than it, as now from my old method (described earlier), the program is also crashing and corrupting.  Still exploring that issue.


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## jgwalter (Jun 21, 2021)

clee01l said:


> Your 2015 iMac probably has 2 TB2 ports. You can plug USB-C or TB3 devices into it with an adapter. You can only daisy chain TB2 devices to a TB2 port. While USB-C and TB3 ports have the same form factor. You can not plug a TB3 device into a USB-C port. While the opposite is true that you can plug a USB-C device into a TB3 port.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



The specs on this adapter says it is 'bi-directional', but I just don't see how that is possible.  Don't I need a male TB2 and a female TB3?

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT207266


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## clee01l (Jun 21, 2021)

jgwalter said:


> My MacBook Pro is a 15" 2016. Your link shows it has TB3 ports, but doesn't say how many. However, it appears to have four according to its System Information. The iMac is a 27" 5K Late 2015. It appears to have 2 TB2 ports.
> 
> The SSD that I have is a Sandisk Extreme Pro 1 TB. It has a USB-C connector, but includes a cable to connect to USB-A as well. It, however, is the subject of this problem, crashing and corrupting constantly.
> 
> I'm beginning to wonder, however, if there is more to this than it, as now from my old method (described earlier), the program is also crashing and corrupting. Still exploring that issue.



Are you willing to try a few things with me? 
First, you should be plugging your unpowered SSD into a port directly on the Motherboard. For optimum results. 

Can you reformat the Sandisk Extreme Pro? If you have data on it that you. Don’t want to lose, then move those file somewhere else.
Mount the disk in the MBP in one of the TB3/USB-C ports. 
Using the Disk Utility, format the Sandisk SSD as APFS. Alternately we can format as exFAT, but I would prefer Apple’s own filesystem APFS.

Next you need to copy the Lightroom folder that contains the master catalog file and any previews folders to the newly formatted Sandisk Extreme Pro disk. If you have preferences stored with the catalog. They will be in a sub folder called Lightroom Settings. You will want to store the settings with the catalog to keep your presets uniform on both computers. If you haven’t stored Lightroom presets in the Lightroom settings folder then we will need to populate that Lightroom Settings folder. This we can take care of when we clean up. 

Having completed these tasks, Let’s start Lightroom Classic on the MBP using the catalog now on the SSD. 

Where do you store the Lightroom Catalog backups? It should be safe on a different volume from the catalog. 

When you exit Lightroom and a backup starts, it uses the free space on Macintosh HD to create. Staging files and other temporary files. You need about 100GB of free space on MacIntosh HD to keep the process from crashing. 

Run Lightroom Classic for a while on this computer and make sure everything is solid. 
If you need to store your presets with the catalog, now is a good time to make that adjustment. In Lightroom Preferences Presets tab, check the box that is labeled “Store Presets with this catalog” And then click on the button labeled “Show Lightroom Setting Folder…”. It should take you to this folder:
/Users/[YourUserID]/Library/Application Support/Adobe/Lightroom/
Exit Lightroom Classic an open this setting folder in Finder. Copy all of the folder in the folder “/Users/[YourUserID]/Library/Application Support/Adobe/Lightroom/“ to the “Lightroom Settings” folder on the EHD. 
Re-open Lightroom Classic. The button labeled “Show Lightroom Setting Folder…”. Should now take you to the “Lightroom Settings” folder on the EHD. 

If Lightroom is still running happily. We can exit the MBP and move the Sandisk EHD to the iMac. 
Here we will need to USB-C to USB-A connector. If the delving plastic insert inside the USB-A Male connector is blue, then you are going to have USB3 connection speeds unless the older iMac USB ports are USB2. 

Connect the Sandisk SSD to the port on the iMac and open the EHD Lightroom classic catalog and see if Lightroom in the iMac is happy running that catalog. You might also need to change the preferences setting on the iMac to “store with this catalog”.


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## jgwalter (Jun 21, 2021)

clee01l said:


> Are you willing to try a few things with me?
> First, you should be plugging your unpowered SSD into a port directly on the Motherboard. For optimum results.
> 
> Can you reformat the Sandisk Extreme Pro? If you have data on it that you. Don’t want to lose, then move those file somewhere else.
> ...


Thanks for these extensive instructions, which I think is a good method to try.

I followed them carefully.  But, when I ran the program, it crashed immediately.  It wanted to repair the catalog, which of course failed.

I then went to a recent backup, which I knew was good.  It loaded, synced with LR Mobile, etc. and sat for a bit while I had dinner.  When I went to close it and back it up, it also crashed immediately, and running the repair also failed.

So, I am back to my Dropbox location to see if I can get something to work.


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## clee01l (Jun 22, 2021)

jgwalter said:


> So, I am back to my Dropbox location to see if I can get something to work.


From this, I have to conclude that it is the unpowered Sandisk Extreme Pro that is the culprit.   Do you have another powered EHD that you can try?


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## jgwalter (Jun 22, 2021)

clee01l said:


> From this, I have to conclude that it is the unpowered Sandisk Extreme Pro that is the culprit.   Do you have another powered EHD that you can try?


I tend to agree with you.  

However, this morning I tried a slightly different approach.  I deleted all but the Settings folder from the SSD, and copied just the catalog folder from my Dropbox folder (it seems to work just fine), leaving the previews to rebuild again.

It is working, and I was able to save & backup a couple of times on the MacBookPro, as well as a couple of times on the iMac.  Each time, I was sure to do a little 'work' on the catalog, creating standard-size previews, smart previews, etc. as well as cleaning up a folder that was synced with LR Mobile, and kind of got caught up in all of the testing.  (several virtual copies were created for no reason). <---- problems with LR Mobile are another topic

It seems to be working OK, but I've been down this road before and I really don't want to spend time doing any actual work on the catalog just to have it start crashing again.


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## jgwalter (Jun 22, 2021)

clee01l said:


> From this, I have to conclude that it is the unpowered Sandisk Extreme Pro that is the culprit.   Do you have another powered EHD that you can try?


I neglected to answer your question.  I have several powered EHDs and an unpowered EHD, but none are SSDs.

I think I need to focus on a replacement.  But is the failure of this SSD the device itself, or the connections?  Or are my two computers simply too old to work with it?


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## clee01l (Jun 22, 2021)

jgwalter said:


> I neglected to answer your question. I have several powered EHDs and an unpowered EHD, but none are SSDs.
> 
> I think I need to focus on a replacement. But is the failure of this SSD the device itself, or the connections? Or are my two computers simply too old to work with it?



I think it is the power available to the SDD that is not sufficient for the SDD. If you have a self powered HDD that you can use to test then you can use my instructions with that External HDD. This will eliminate the Sandisk Extreme pro and the SDD from the test. Then you can purchase a reliable bare SDD and put it into the Enclosure of your choice or buy a powered enclosure with an included SDD. 

If you get a powered TB3 enclosure, you will need a TB3 to TB2 adapter for the older iMac.  I would not try to go the USB-C route with an new powered EHD. 

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