# Captions becoming keywords on upgrade from PSE8 to LR4



## Sue (Apr 2, 2012)

I am trying to convert from PSE8 to LR4 and am having keyword problems. LR4 is moving my hierarchy from PSE8 fine but LR4 is also taking all my captions and making them into keywords. Captions have nothing to do with keywords, why import them as keywords? I am a heavy caption user but haven't figured out how to stop LR4 from doing this. Is there a way????


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## Victoria Bampton (Apr 3, 2012)

Hi Sue

I've split your question off, as that thread was getting a little confusing.  

So, are you using LR4's Upgrade Photoshop Elements Catalog command in the File menu?  Or something else?


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## Sue (Apr 3, 2012)

I have tried both the upgrade command and import the photos. Both create keywords that aren't their. I have looked at the metadata and there is nothing there. Captions is the only thing left and I am not 100% sure about that. 

How did I get to this conclusion? I took one of the random keywords that I know I never used(these were old family pictures that were scanned in) and looked at the metadata, nothing was there for that picture.

As another test I took a picture from my camera, put it into a new PSE catalog just for the one picture(no categories at all), upgraded to LR4 and the keyword QR Codes showed up!!! 

When I run my test catalog through the upgrade my catalog hierarchy comes through OK plus all the random keywords. Another forum suggested that I just delete the random keywords. I will try that this weekend and then play around to make sure I am reasonably comfortable with the results.

Additionally, I cannot create a caption in PSE8 that carries through to LR4. I have used Elements from when it was called Album, since the late 90s I think. I have a feeling that the metadata that is appearing now is not the same as then and there is stuff in the old metadata that no one can see. I am at a loss to explain it and felt I have devoted too much time to the non-resolution. 

I will use LR for future catalogs but I may not convert anymore over(I have 9), just not worth all the effort and frustration.

Don't spend any time on this just another item one has to work around with Adobe products.


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## Victoria Bampton (Apr 4, 2012)

Weird!  Deleting the keywords would certainly be a good option.  My other initial thought is whether there's a metadata preset selected in the import dialog, with keywords in the metadata preset, but I don't think that should affect the PSE upgrade.  It definitely sounds odd.


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## Su Bayfield (Apr 9, 2012)

Sue said:


> I am trying to convert from PSE8 to LR4 and am having keyword problems. LR4 is moving my hierarchy from PSE8 fine but LR4 is also taking all my captions and making them into keywords. Captions have nothing to do with keywords, why import them as keywords? I am a heavy caption user but haven't figured out how to stop LR4 from doing this. Is there a way????



Hi Sue

I'm fairly new to Lightroom (Lightroom 3.6 was my first version). When I installed it I converted my PSE8 catalogue that has also been going since Album. Like you, I am a heavy caption user (or title as it's called in PSE) as well as writing copious notes. On import, all my keyword hierarchy remained as it was in PSE, which was great, and the 'Title' became the 'Caption' in my Lightroom metadata. It all worked perfectly except I lost all my notes field which Lightroom doesn't support. It certainly didn't write in any unexpected keywords. One thing I always did in PSE was to write keyword tags and properties into photo on the File menu, so maybe this was why it all worked fine. I haven't tried importing a PSE catalogue to LR4 as I'm starting afresh, but I'd be interested to know if LR4 works differently.

Hope you get it sorted.


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## Sue (Apr 12, 2012)

I have played with this some more. I have figured out what LR is  doing and where it is getting the information. Here is what I did:

1) created an LR4 test catalog and imported one picture

LR4 has created keywords from previous catalogs the picture has resided  in and previous keywords the picture has had. I looked at the metadata  and the keywords are not there. LR4 also has not created keywords from  the catalog the picture came from.  

2) I created a PSE8 catalog and imported the one picture. Lo and behold,  there were keywords attached to that picture that were from past  catalogs. My guess is that sometime or the other tags were written to  the file and are kept someplace within the file that PSE and LR  recognize.

OK. I have part of the answer. Next question is why didn't LR import the  tags from the PSE8 catalog? I thought the tags needed to be written to  the file for import only for PSE9 and PSE10, apparently not so.

What this means to me:

I cannot convert from PSE8 to LR4 with my current catalogs without major keyword confusion. *Does anyone have a utility to strip off the keywords that are on the file currently. I would need it for psd's*. Explorer can strip off tags for other types of files.

Before converting to LR4 all tags will need to be written to the file so the tags carry forward as keywords. 

FYI: These keywords only show up in Explorer metadata, not in the metadata shown in LR4.

Can I use LR4 as an alternative editor from PSE8? I will need to try  that but doubt it due to the catalog structure incorporated into LR4.

Conclusion: LR4 is usable to me but only as a alternative editor or for  new catalogs. Conversion from what I have in my PSE8 catalogs is not  viable.


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## Sue (Apr 12, 2012)

Su,

I just found your note. Didn't get any notification or else missed it.

I just posted what I have found out. Still having problems. LR4 is importing as keywords catalog names(current and previous) and keywords written to the files from past versions. I created a test LR4 catalog didn't write anything to the picture files, keywords did not come in. For me it is just a mess.


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## clee01l (Apr 12, 2012)

Sue,  Can you post a copy of your PSE8 catalog to some place where it could be downloaded? If you have Dropbox, copying it to your public folder and posting the link here would work.  YouSendIt is also a good file sharing service.


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## Sue (Apr 12, 2012)

Cletus,

I have 2 notes explaining what I tried and concluded but they haven't been posted yet from the moderator. Don't know why. After those notes get posted let me know if you still want anything.


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## Sue (Apr 12, 2012)

Why does the modertor need to OK some notes and not others?????


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## clee01l (Apr 12, 2012)

I think part of the forum SPAM protection limits what new users can post (like Links) Once you are vetted (10 posts) you have full posting rights.

What I really want to see right now is a copy of your PSE8 catalog.   With that, I can do two things.  I can convert it to LR4 on my computer to see if I also get captions showing up as keywords, and I can use a database manager to inspect the tables inside your PSE8 catalog to see if they show your captions in the keyword table. 

I can also convert the PSE8 catalog to LR3 if I do get the same results as you in the LR4 conversion.  I've converted other PSE catalogs without issue in LR3 so I know this works correctly.  With LR4 being new, there is a possibility that the PSE catalog conversion did not get tested during the Alpha and Beta test cycles.   So if there is a bug, I want to isolate it to LR4 and document it before reporting it to Adobe.


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## Sue (Apr 12, 2012)

Cletus,

My note still isn't posted and that will clarify what is actually happening. I guess it will be a day or so before it gets posted by the moderator. No sense in your reinventing the wheel. My note was longer so that may be why it goes to the moderator.


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## Victoria Bampton (Apr 12, 2012)

Sue said:


> I looked at the metadata  and the keywords are not there.



Just a quick question - how are you looking at the metadata?

Besides Clee's great suggestions, I have one other thought - if you upgrade the PSE catalogs into a blank catalog, you could remove the keywords (and write back to the files too if you like) and then import that catalog into your main working catalog.



clee01l said:


> I think part of the forum SPAM protection limits what new users can post (like Links) Once you are vetted (10 posts) you have full posting rights.



Quite right.  It just gives us chance to kick out the spammers without their unsuitable images and other rubbish ever appearing on the forum for everyone to see.  Since you're clearly no spammer, I've bypassed the system and upgraded you now, so your posts shouldn't go into moderation now.


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## Sue (Apr 13, 2012)

Thanks for bypassing the system for me. My note has never appeared so I will re-draft it. I may have a copy on another forum. If the moderator doesn't post the note are you notified? As I said, my note from yesterday has never been posted.


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## Sue (Apr 13, 2012)

Note hung up by moderator................

I have played with this some more. I have figured out what LR is  doing and where it is getting the information. Here is what I did:

1) created an LR4 test catalog and imported one picture

LR4 has created keywords from previous catalogs the picture has resided  in and previous keywords the picture has had. I looked at the metadata(in LR4)  and the keywords are not there. LR4 also has not created keywords from  the catalog the picture came from.  

2) I created a PSE8 catalog and imported the one picture. Lo and behold,  there were keywords attached to that picture that were from past  catalogs. My guess is that sometime or the other tags were written to  the file and are kept someplace within the file that PSE and LR  recognize but not visible by these programs to the user.

OK. I have part of the answer. Next question is why didn't LR import the  tags from the PSE8 catalog? I thought the tags needed to be written to  the file for import only for PSE9 and PSE10, apparently not so.

What this means to me:

I cannot convert from PSE8 to LR4 with my current catalogs without major keyword confusion. *Does anyone have a utility to strip off the keywords that are on the file currently. I would need it for psd's*. Explorer can strip off tags for other types of files.

Before converting to LR4 all tags will need to be written to the file so the tags carry forward as keywords. 

FYI: These keywords only show up in Explorer metadata, not in the metadata shown in LR4.

Can I use LR4 as an alternative editor from PSE8? I will need to try  that but doubt it due to the catalog structure incorporated into LR4.

Conclusion: LR4 is usable to me but only as a alternative editor or for  new catalogs. Conversion from what I have in my PSE8 catalogs is not  viable. 		

Victoria: Please note I created a blank catalog but the tags written by previous PSE's are still there. Adobe does not provide a method to remove previous written tags, you need to go to Explorer or a freeware program to do this.

Most of the pictures I have in this catalog came from other people(relatives). So I really don't know what software they used to get tags into the metadata, I know my brother used PSE. Explorer can strip off the tags from jpg, not psd and I havent' checked tiff or raw.

Where I stand now is I need to figure out how to strip off the tags on all files, write the tags to the files in the catalog and then download the catalog. I only have 18 days left in my free trial so I don't think I will ever have a resolution to this and hesitate to buy LR if I am having this much trouble. I doubt there will be a solution before my trial expires.


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## Victoria Bampton (Apr 13, 2012)

Sue said:


> Thanks for bypassing the system for me. My note has never appeared so I will re-draft it. I may have a copy on another forum. If the moderator doesn't post the note are you notified? As I said, my note from yesterday has never been posted.



That looks like post #6 Sue - it may be on a previous page.  Sorry it all got a bit confusing.


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## Sue (Apr 13, 2012)

That is post #6. It became very confusing with the one note getting held up. I thought it would go into the sequence of notes and never looked back.

Cletus/Victoria: What do you want me to post/load? I need to leave in about 1.5 hours so I don't have that much time. Won't be back until late afternoon(ET).


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## Victoria Bampton (Apr 13, 2012)

Sue, so just clarify for me, have you tried this:

Create a blank LR catalog
Import the PSE catalogs
Select delete all of the keywords

Open main LR catalog
Go to File menu > Import from Catalog
Point to the temporary one

They should come into your main catalog without tags then, regardless of what's still in the files.

Later's fine!


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## Sue (Apr 13, 2012)

OK. We will take this one step at a time. You are correct in what I did, not in what the outcome was. When I imported from PSE8 to LR4 keywords showed up that were not in the catalog.

When I imported the one picture into PSE8 it asked if I wanted the tags associated with that picture imported, I said no and they did not show up in PSE8. They did show up when I import into LR4.


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## Victoria Bampton (Apr 13, 2012)

Did you do BOTH stages Sue, using the temporary catalog?  Importing into a separate blank catalog should allow you to remove the keywords from the catalog, so when you then merge that into your main catalog, they don't end up contaminating your main catalog.


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## Sue (Apr 13, 2012)

Yes I did. I created a new catalog for PSE8, imported the picture and declined importing keywords from the picture. PSE8 had no keywords except the default ones which are not attached to the picture. I then imported that catalog into a new LR4 catalog and all the keywords I declined to import into PSE8 showed up.

After this happened I looked at the picture in Explorer and the keywords were in the TAG field. I used Explorer to delete everything in the TAG field. I then created a PSE8 temporary catalog and imported the picture. PSE8 did not find any keywords to import, fine, then imported into a temporary LR4 catalog, no keywords imported. 

There are additional problems I am encountering. But I think we should work on one problem at a time.


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## Victoria Bampton (Apr 13, 2012)

Ah, that's where we're going adrift.  I didn't mean a new PSE8 catalog - I meant a clean Lightroom catalog.  If you import the photos into a clean catalog, it will import with the tags from the TAG field.  But then you could easily delete them in the clean LR catalog.  Once you've got all the photos in a clean (no extra keywords) LR catalog, it'll be easy to transfer that into your main LR catalog.

Or am I missing an issue here?


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## Sue (Apr 13, 2012)

You are missing 50,000 pictures and I can't determine where the keywords are coming from, my PSE8 catalog that I have actually tagged the photos with(though I am not sure the tags from the catalog are coming over, it seems not unless I write the tags to the files) or tags left over from other catalogs(from various vendors).


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## Sue (Apr 13, 2012)

I just tried to delete keywords on my lone picture. I selected(highlighted) all the keywords, tried the delete key(that didn't work), did a right click but I could only delete one keyword, not the 19 that are showing up. I looked around and can't find any other place to delete all the keywords. My thoughts were to import the catalog, delete all the keywords(hopefully LR will strip them off the file), go back to PSE8 and write the keywords to the files then go back to LR and import("Upgrade").

Next Step: I deleted each keyword(tedious) via LR4, closed LR4, looked at the picture and the keywords were still in the TAG section of the file.


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## Victoria Bampton (Apr 13, 2012)

To delete the keywords, in the Keyword List panel, click on the first, hold down shift, click on the last keyword (to therefore select all of the keywords), and click the - button at the top of the panel.  That'll delete all selected keywords, both from the list and from the photos (or to be accurate, from the photos records within the catalog... I'm not sure LR would remove metadata in a non-standard metadata field even if you wrote to the files... but as far as general workflow goes, that should be fine).

I think the bit I'm missing is the keywords you actually want to keep are in the PSE catalog.  I have a few ideas for workarounds, but tell me this: can you identify the keywords that you want to keep?  If so, deleting the ones you want to get rid of, once they're in the LR catalog, might work.


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## Sue (Apr 2, 2012)

I am trying to convert from PSE8 to LR4 and am having keyword problems. LR4 is moving my hierarchy from PSE8 fine but LR4 is also taking all my captions and making them into keywords. Captions have nothing to do with keywords, why import them as keywords? I am a heavy caption user but haven't figured out how to stop LR4 from doing this. Is there a way????


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## Sue (Apr 13, 2012)

No. I cannot identify the ones I want to keep. I have no problem stripping the tags from the Exif data before moving to LR, that is simple. My problem arises that the tags only can be stripped from jpg(I haven't checked tif, dng or raw), tags cannot be stripped from psd files.


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## Victoria Bampton (Apr 14, 2012)

EXIFTool may be able to do that for you, and although it's command-line, I believe there's a UI for them.  

Clee mentioned sending your catalog to him to have a look at - have you done that yet?  He may be able to come up with a better plan having seen the details.


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## Sue (Apr 14, 2012)

I forgot about Exiftool. Since PSD is proprietary I'm not sure anything will work. Adobe made a big mistake by allowing tags be written to the megadata but not having a piece of software to delete them. Not sure what other programs do this also. I'll try Exiftool.

Regarding Clee. I didn't send it to him as I think this is a file problem rather than a catalog problem. Are you thinking that Adobe is keeping this additional info in the catalog no matter what? If so, I'll send Clee the catalog.


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## Sue (Apr 15, 2012)

Clee,

PM me your email address and I'll send the catalog over. It's not big, only 1 picture. I looked at Yousendit and I would need your address no matter what. If you have gmail there are not size limitation that I am aware of but the files are all small so it shouldn't make any difference.

Thanks,

Sue


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## Sue (Apr 15, 2012)

I just loaded Exiftool, looks like it will do the trick. Will take a lot of time though. I will continue on with my testing of LR4 now that I know it is usable with a lot of work.


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## Victoria Bampton (Apr 15, 2012)

Excellent, thanks for the update Sue.


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## clee01l (Apr 15, 2012)

And I received your catalogs, I'll take a look at these to see if I can see a pattern that can be corrected with out having to resort to EXIFtool.


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