# raw to dng - when?



## Stephen Harris (Nov 15, 2007)

I've searched the threads without success. If this is answered elsewhere, please point me in that direction. 

For those who use dng, at what point in your workflow do you convert to dng? Do you make any adjustments to the raw (cr2 in my case) file first, like white balance or exposure corrections, then do the conversion? Or does it make more sense to convert the files right off the bat, archive the raw file, and use the dng from then on? I think the thing that intrigues me most about moving to dng is that all of the adjustments and changes to adjustments are saved within the file (as opposed to being written to an xmp file), as well as within the lightroom database. 

Thanks in advance.


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## Ian Farlow (Nov 15, 2007)

I convert on import. I was saving the CR2 files as backups, but I don't think I'll do that any more. There is no good reason (for me) to keep them... just a fear of letting go thing, I think.


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## theturninggate (Nov 15, 2007)

My situation is much the same as Ian.

I used to make my adjustments to the CR2 files from my camera, and convert to DNG when I was finished. For me it was an easy way to look at my files and say, "That's CR2; it still needs work. These are DNG, so I know I'm finished with them."

When I discovered how much of my hard disk I could save by only keeping DNG files, however, I changed my tune. I was having major disk space issues on my previous Powerbook between my music collection and my photography.

Now I convert on import. The trick is to remember to use Cmd-S (Ctrl-S on Windows) to write your data into the DNG files; if you don't do this, then it will only exist in the LR database (a fact I learned the hard way).

At this point, I no longer keep my CR2 files around. Like Ian, I have no good reason. DNGs are smaller and I hate sidecar files.


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## Andrew Hayton (Nov 16, 2007)

I was going to convert on import until I realised that LR doesn't support both sensors of the FUJI S3 or S5 so I keep in RAW just in case I need to use Fuji's software to adjust a file. LR now converts the compressed RAF files so hopefully soon it might support both sensors.


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## hoddo (Nov 16, 2007)

*On import...*

...for me to.

Also, you can convert jpegs to DNG after the fact through LR if you so wish.  Dong so would this make the file then non destructive for I understand that opening and reopening jpegs that they degrade over time?


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## sageg (Nov 17, 2007)

I do it on import. Keeps it simple.


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## TerryM (Nov 17, 2007)

theturninggate said:


> My situation is much the same as Ian.
> 
> I used to make my adjustments to the CR2 files from my camera, and convert to DNG when I was finished. For me it was an easy way to look at my files and say, "That's CR2; it still needs work. These are DNG, so I know I'm finished with them."
> 
> ...


 
Are you saying you have to remember to ctrl-s every time you import? I thought changes were written into the DNG file.  The DNG is all new to me as you can see.

Are the changes to DNG also non destructive?


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## Kiwigeoff (Nov 18, 2007)

TerryM said:


> Are you saying you have to remember to ctrl-s every time you import? I thought changes were written into the DNG file.  The DNG is all new to me as you can see.
> 
> Are the changes to DNG also non destructive?



1. Only if you don't have autowrite to xmp turned on in the preferences. Auto write was almost unusable in 1.2 due to it slowing LR down so much but is very usable in 1.3 I find.
2. Yes.


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## DavidZvi (Nov 18, 2007)

Kiwigeoff said:


> 1. Only if you don't have autowrite to xmp turned on in the preferences. Auto write was almost unusable in 1.2 due to it slowing LR down so much but is very usable in 1.3 I find.
> 2. Yes.


 
Very good thing to know, I am always forgetting to update the xmp.  Now I can leave to set to auto.


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## Ian Farlow (Nov 19, 2007)

theturninggate said:


> DNGs are smaller and I hate sidecar files.



Yep. It's an odd feeling the first few times deleting the originals after the DNG has been made, but I have confidence in the DNG, and I too hate sidecar files.


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## Kiwigeoff (Nov 19, 2007)

I keep my NEF files archived and work from DNG's converted at import. Seems to work well.


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## MLKimages (Dec 5, 2007)

*Correct me if I am wrong*

I may be wrong so can someone verify this with certanty as I am new to Lightroom and trying to learn and absorb as much info as possible.

My understanding is ONLY in RAW format you need to Control (whatever the letter is) or use the Automatic write changes to XMP.  If your using jpeg, TIFFS, PSD or DNG files this is not necessary since the Mertadata/XMP info is embedded into the file AUTOMATICALLY.

If you have Scott Kelby's Lightroom book, refer top pages 83-84.

Correct!?

Michael






Kiwigeoff said:


> 1. Only if you don't have autowrite to xmp turned on in the preferences. Auto write was almost unusable in 1.2 due to it slowing LR down so much but is very usable in 1.3 I find.
> 2. Yes.


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## Victoria Bampton (Dec 5, 2007)

Welcome to the forum Michael!

You're close, but not quite right.

The difference that you're referring to is that raw files have the xmp as a sidecar, whereas jpeg/tiff/psd/dng have the xmp data embedded.

Either way though, you either need to Ctrl-S / Cmd-S or Automatically Write Changes to XMP to get those settings to update.  They are also embedded into the file when you export, unless you choose to minimize metadata.


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## Kiwigeoff (Dec 5, 2007)

MLKimages said:


> I may be wrong so can someone verify this with certanty as I am new to Lightroom and trying to learn and absorb as much info as possible.
> 
> My understanding is ONLY in RAW format you need to Control (whatever the letter is) or use the Automatic write changes to XMP.  If your using jpeg, TIFFS, PSD or DNG files this is not necessary since the Mertadata/XMP info is embedded into the file AUTOMATICALLY.
> 
> ...


RAW files will end up with "sidecar xmp" files containing the metadata, that is correct.
DNG, jpeg etc will not have the changes made in LR written to them unless you have "autowrite to xmp" enabled or save with "cmd-s". The changes are in the LR database and would be written upon export though.

I hope that helps clarify this.

Was caught up on a phone call half way through writing this - nice to see we agree Victoria!!


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## MLKimages (Dec 5, 2007)

*Question*

...and remember I am a week old Lightroom owner.
What info is being saved (or lost) in the xmp data?  Is there a site that show the exact info.  I just started submitting some of my images to Stock and a reason I purchased Lightroom was the ease of entering the metadata info.  I want to make sure if I am adding this info: Captions, descriptions, keywords, ect.  That it is not lost in export.

Some of the items I (think) know that are included in the xmp files are tags, color tags and rating info - what else?


time to turn on the auto save since my memory is not what it use to be.
Thanks,
Michael





Victoria Bampton said:


> Welcome to the forum Michael!
> 
> You're close, but not quite right.
> 
> ...


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## toneyw (Dec 5, 2007)

Great info I learned from this thread. . . Now to convert all my RAW images to DNG images.


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## MLKimages (Dec 5, 2007)

*so how are they lost?*

"DNG, jpeg etc will not have the changes made in LR written to them unless you have "autowrite to xmp" enabled or save with "cmd-s". *The changes are in the LR database and would be written upon export though*."

I plan on importing RAW files and converting them immediately to DNG.

So if the changes are in the LR database and written upon export (lets say to jpeg for web upload) - why do then need to be saved?  Call me slow, but not following what saving them does if they are in the LR database.  I guess saving moves them from the database into the actual file never to be lost thru corruption?

Michael






Kiwigeoff said:


> RAW files will end up with "sidecar xmp" files containing the metadata, that is correct.
> DNG, jpeg etc will not have the changes made in LR written to them unless you have "autowrite to xmp" enabled or save with "cmd-s". The changes are in the LR database and would be written upon export though.
> 
> I hope that helps clarify this.
> ...


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## Victoria Bampton (Dec 5, 2007)

Ok, let's just clarify this for you Michael...

The changes ARE held in the LR database for as long as the image is there, but you may wish to write that data back to the original files (or your DNG's) so that other programs can read that data too - for example Bridge, iView, etc - and also as an additional backup in case the database ever gets corrupted.

All of your applicable settings (including your copyright data, keywords, captions etc) are written to the exported files (i.e. the jpegs).


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## kevin_c (Dec 8, 2007)

I use Downloader Pro to download from my CF card, and this uses the back-up plugin to make a second copy of the .cr2 files in another folder automatically.

I then import into LR and usually 'cull' the obvious cr*p from the folder (quite a few sometimes :lol.

At this point I will convert the remaining shots to .dng and go make a coffee!

The back-up .cr2's are never touched except to be backed-up to external HD and back-up server.
I also do the same back-up for my .dng files


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## TerryM (Dec 8, 2007)

kevin_c said:


> I use Downloader Pro to download from my CF card, and this uses the back-up plugin to make a second copy of the .cr2 files in another folder automatically.
> 
> I then import into LR and usually 'cull' the obvious cr*p from the folder (quite a few sometimes :lol.
> 
> ...


Do you think it is really necessary to keep backup of both dng and raw?


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## DonRicklin (Dec 8, 2007)

On the Adobe User to User LR Forum many have indicated that they like to keep off-line some where a set of the original RAWs, just in case, as an ultimate back-up that can always be converted, or, I suppose, if DNG conversion improves (however that maybe) they can then always reconvert.

Better safe than sorry, I suppose.

Don


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## rcannonp (Dec 8, 2007)

You can also set the DNG conversion to embed the original RAW file which can be extracted later. I don't know if you can extract the file in LR or if you have to use the stand alone converter.


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## DonRicklin (Dec 8, 2007)

THis makes a very large file, which is why, AFAIK, some opt to keep the original Off-line somewhere.

Don


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## rcannonp (Dec 8, 2007)

I knew that the embedded files were larger, but I never really checked it out. I figured that it would take less space than 2 files. I just did a test and found that the dng files with the embedded raw files are more than twice as large as the original. :shock:


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## kevin_c (Dec 8, 2007)

TerryM;438' said:
			
		

> Do you think it is really necessary to keep backup of both dng and raw?



Probably not - But I have loads of storage space and it's better to have backups you don't use 

Also if dng suddenly goes 'out of business', I can always go back to original files.

Maybe it's because I'm paranoid :cheesy:


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## Stephen Harris (Nov 15, 2007)

I've searched the threads without success. If this is answered elsewhere, please point me in that direction. 

For those who use dng, at what point in your workflow do you convert to dng? Do you make any adjustments to the raw (cr2 in my case) file first, like white balance or exposure corrections, then do the conversion? Or does it make more sense to convert the files right off the bat, archive the raw file, and use the dng from then on? I think the thing that intrigues me most about moving to dng is that all of the adjustments and changes to adjustments are saved within the file (as opposed to being written to an xmp file), as well as within the lightroom database. 

Thanks in advance.


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## d44 (Dec 31, 2007)

HI - New to lightroom and digital photography and there is sooooo  much to learn!

Newbie question here - Where in Lightroom can you set it to automatically write to xmp when making changes to the DNG files?

Thanks, this forum is great and full of helpful information


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## Kiwigeoff (Dec 31, 2007)

d44;53'4 said:
			
		

> HI - New to lightroom and digital photography and there is sooooo  much to learn!
> 
> Newbie question here - Where in Lightroom can you set it to automatically write to xmp when making changes to the DNG files?
> 
> Thanks, this forum is great and full of helpful information


Library Module.
File/Catalog Settings/Metadata.
You mat want to check that your standard preview size is appropriate at the same time. This ought to be 1.5x your screen pixel width and is in:
File/Catalog Settings/File Handling.

Have a great 2''8 and ENJOY LR :cheesy::cheesy:


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## fotosbydavid (Dec 31, 2007)

When I import my raw files (cr2) into lightroom I have "copy photos as digital negatives (DNG)" selected.  I have imported say 8''' photos this way .  I do not have copies of my original CR2 files.  I just discovered that i didn't have automatically write changes into xmp checked  :shock:.  Therefore:

1)  I understand that my "metadata" is in LR but if i were to use the DNG files as they stand now in another program that the metadata would not be there is this correct?

2)  It is my understanding that if I export the DNG file from light room as a DNG (or JPG for that matter) file then the metadate would be in the exported DNG file - correct?

3) so if I want the metadata to be in my DNG files at all times what should I do?  select all my photos in my catalog and export them as DNGs and then delete my "original"  DNG files and when lightroom asks to find the lost photos use the DNG files that were exported?    

thanks,

Dave




Victoria Bampton said:


> Ok, let's just clarify this for you Michael...
> 
> The changes ARE held in the LR database for as long as the image is there, but you may wish to write that data back to the original files (or your DNG's) so that other programs can read that data too - for example Bridge, iView, etc - and also as an additional backup in case the database ever gets corrupted.
> 
> All of your applicable settings (including your copyright data, keywords, captions etc) are written to the exported files (i.e. the jpegs).


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## Kiwigeoff (Dec 31, 2007)

fotosbydavid;53'6 said:
			
		

> When I import my raw files (cr2) into lightroom I have "copy photos as digital negatives (DNG)" selected.  I have imported say 8''' photos this way .  I do not have copies of my original CR2 files.  I just discovered that i didn't have automatically write changes into xmp checked  :shock:.  Therefore:
> 
> 1)  I understand that my "metadata" is in LR but if i were to use the DNG files as they stand now in another program that the metadata would not be there is this correct?
> *Yes*
> ...



That should do it for you - no need to export/import at all!!


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## fotosbydavid (Dec 31, 2007)

*thanks*



			
				Kiwigeoff;53'7 said:
			
		

> That should do it for you - no need to export/import at all!!




Thanks, I want to make sure i understand this so i have one more question:

for some reason i thought that if I did  not have "write changes to XMP" checked when I imported my raw files that I was out of luck.  

I think what you are saying is that if I when i imported my raw files and "have copy as DNG"  selected during the import process but I forgot to check the "write changes into XMP" box that I can still write the XMP data into the DNG files in my LR catalog anytime by clicking CNTL S on a PC (cmd S on a mac).  in effect there are two times that I can write the XMP data inot my DNG files. 1) is when importing if "write changes to SMP" checked, 2) at any time i scan select the DNG files in my LR catalog and click CNTRL S for pc.   Is this correct?

happy new year,

Dave
currently in Vietnam


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## Mick Seymour (Dec 31, 2007)

fotosbydavid;53'8 said:
			
		

> in effect there are two times that I can write the XMP data inot my DNG files. 1) is when importing if "write changes to SMP" checked, 2) at any time i scan select the DNG files in my LR catalog and click CNTRL S for pc.



During import, if the preference to automatically write XMP is set _and_ you apply a develop or metadata preset, XMP for the preset will be written to the file. If you don't apply a preset, there is nothing to write. The converted DNG will however include the metadata that was in the original RAW file even if automatically write XMP is not set.

Your number 2 is correct.


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## Kiwigeoff (Dec 31, 2007)

I'll try to add to Mick's comments and clarify further.
Yes if autowrite has not been checked then you can write any changes at a later time by the Ctrl-S command. 
"in effect there are two times that I can write the XMP data inot my DNG files. 1) is when importing if "write changes to SMP" checked, 2) at any time i scan select the DNG files in my LR catalog and click CNTRL S for pc. Is this correct?"
Point 1) Not completely correct. Autowrite will write all of the time not just on import. I leave it set to on so as I have my catalog up to date always.
Point 2) Yes that is right although not necessary if autowrite is set to on as described above.

Hope that helps.


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## brokenhat (Jan 4, 2008)

*File Size??*

Hi everyone this is my first post so please be nice.  I have a 2'D and just tried importing 2 test Raw photos to DNG and the sizes were only slightly smaller, not a lot smaller like a few of the early posts in this thread made me believe. Am I missing something (option) or is 5% smaller considered a lot smaller when it comes to lossless photos? Thanks!

Matt
Nova Scotia


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## Kiwigeoff (Jan 8, 2008)

brokenhat said:


> Hi everyone this is my first post so please be nice.  I have a 2'D and just tried importing 2 test Raw photos to DNG and the sizes were only slightly smaller, not a lot smaller like a few of the early posts in this thread made me believe. Am I missing something (option) or is 5% smaller considered a lot smaller when it comes to lossless photos? Thanks!
> 
> Matt
> Nova Scotia


That may be correct Matt, although it will depend on each individual file.


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## Sgt_Strider (Jan 16, 2008)

MLKimages said:


> I may be wrong so can someone verify this with certanty as I am new to Lightroom and trying to learn and absorb as much info as possible.
> 
> My understanding is ONLY in RAW format you need to Control (whatever the letter is) or use the Automatic write changes to XMP. If your using jpeg, TIFFS, PSD or DNG files this is not necessary since the Mertadata/XMP info is embedded into the file AUTOMATICALLY.
> 
> ...


 
I'm new to photography and Lightroom, but are you saying that with .CR2 or Panasonic FZ-8's RAW format, the metadata and keywords are not embedded in? Instead a separate XMP file is produced that is linked to the RAW files? Or they're embedded into the files like with JPEGs?


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## Kiwigeoff (Jan 16, 2008)

Sgt_Strider said:


> I'm new to photography and Lightroom, but are you saying that with .CR2 or Panasonic FZ-8's RAW format, the metadata and keywords are not embedded in? Instead a separate XMP file is produced that is linked to the RAW files? Or they're embedded into the files like with JPEGs?


With any camera manufacturers RAW files the changes are written to an xmp side car file.
Personally I convert to DNG on import as the metadata etc is written into the file header the same as jpegs.
p.s. Sgt, welcome and it would be great if you could take a minute to fill in your signature with information such as I have. You can access this from the UserCP at the top left of the page. It does help in answering queries.


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