# Keyword Ordering



## Slyleibo (Apr 20, 2013)

Is it possible to stop Lightroom from re-sorting keywords alphabetically?

Also, is there anyway to get a count number of the keywords?

Thanks


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## johnbeardy (Apr 20, 2013)

Slyleibo said:


> Is it possible to stop Lightroom from re-sorting keywords alphabetically?



No, but why do you need it? If Alamy, look up the Alamy plugin by Jim Keir. It may solve the problem.



Slyleibo said:


> Also, is there anyway to get a count number of the keywords?


If you mean the number of keywords applied per photo, my Search Replace plugin's Parse and Audit feature will do it.

John


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## Slyleibo (Apr 20, 2013)

Yes Alamy and other libraries - thanks for the leads - will have a look - cheers


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## Slyleibo (Apr 20, 2013)

really annoying though that you can't prevent Lightroom from re-ordering!!!


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## clee01l (Apr 21, 2013)

Slyleibo said:


> really annoying though that you can't prevent Lightroom from re-ordering!!!


If you have 910 keywords (as I do) how would you find the one in the middle if they were not in some kind of order? If you like you can place them in hierarchies.  Each level of the hierarchy will be sorted Alphanumerically.  and keywords with in each family will be sorted alphanumerically.
If you export your keyword list to a text file you will get one keyword per line. Any Ascii text editor that can count or number lines will be able to tell you how many keywords that you have accumulated.


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## johnbeardy (Apr 21, 2013)

The list itself can remain alphanumeric. It's more about how they are applied to exported pictures because some stock agencies'  search algorithms are weighted towards the first keywords in the file.

John


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## MarkNicholas (Apr 21, 2013)

So in what order would you prefer them. By creation order ?
How about being able to rate each keyword from 1 to 1000 and then list them according to their rating x their usage ??


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## johnbeardy (Apr 21, 2013)

It's on a per image basis. Imagine adding keywords in the Keywording panel's Keyword Tags box. So after entering "Paris, Dog" you would see "Paris, Dog" rather than Lightroom's alphabetical "Dog, Paris", and the export file would also list them in the user's order. As a result, the agency algorithm would display this picture near the top of search results for Paris and lower down if a visitor were searching for dogs.

I'll add that while I understand the problem, I'm not sure I would want Lightroom to be changed to facilitate this workflow. I don't think manual sorting is part of the relevant standards, and it's a pretty blunt search algorithm which is limited to a few agencies. So it's probably best done by an agency-specific plugin like the one I suggested.

John


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## Slyleibo (Apr 21, 2013)

I supply images to multiple agencies and anything to help simplify workflow is extremely welcome.
With so much effort required (and such low returns), it's important to believe that you've done everything possible to maximise chances of search engine exposure.
With the exception of Alamy, which has specific and unique keywording requirements, it is soooo much simpler to have just one set of final output images that are generically suitable for all the agencies. For this reason, I feel that agency specific plugins would be way too time consuming and complicated. Whilst only a few of the agencies state explicitly that search is improved with priority keywords first - these files can just as well be used with all the other agencies as well.

The only things needed are ....

1. option to flip between 'user order' and alphabetical order (must maintain on export)

2. something that checks/removes duplicates

3. a live count of number of keywords

(With the above in place, tweaking for Alamy after export would be pretty simple as well)

A little plugin that did the above would be brilliant!

Simon


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## Tony Jay (Apr 21, 2013)

Simon, your thread has got my attention - sadly I don't have an answer for you but I would be very interested to see what transpires.

Tony Jay


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## johnbeardy (Apr 21, 2013)

Simon, was non-alpha keywording covered by the Alamy plugin I mentioned?

John


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## Slyleibo (Apr 21, 2013)

John - I think so yes - I'm just looking through the long and complex manual at the moment. This is a big and complex plugin though. It involves initially uploading to Alamy directly from Lightroom, then downloading the (Alamy induced) metadata back into  Lightroom, so as you can mess with it in Lightroom then re-upload it again (if that makes any sense!). It basically allows you to do the metadata stuff that you usually do online via the Alamy contributor login, but inside Lightroom. It looks pretty complex, maybe there are some good reasons for it if you have a large Alamy portfolio I'm not sure. It also costs £25.

Aside from that ... I have also now just realised that I'm actually quite under-educated about the Lightroom Keywording process.
Is there a good source for reading up on the whole 'Parenting' business?
I've just read somewhere that Lightroom adds extra 'parent' keywords on export!!! Surely, you must be able to turn this on/off ?

A few times I have been puzzled, that after upload to agencies I'm told I have 77 keywords when I was almost certain that I had carefully kept them to under 50 before exporting!

Back to do some more study .... any good Lightroom Keyword links/tips?

Thanks


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## Tony Jay (Apr 22, 2013)

Simon, this I CAN help you with.

If you have a hierarchy of keywords you can control which keywords in the hierarchy get exported.

I have an extensive hierarchical collection of keywords.
Some of the keywords are there to help me organize myself.
As a simple example I have a non-exportable keyword "WORLD LOCATION".
The next level of keywords include, again non-exportable keywords, called "CONTINENTS" and "ISLANDS"
First-generation of keywords in "CONTINENTS" include, "Africa", "Asia", "Australia", etc. These are exportable.

The screen-grab shows the 'Edit Keyword Tag'.
View attachment editkeywordtag.JPG

You will note that I have capitalized this keyword - this acts as a visual clue that this keyword should NOT be exportable.
In the 'keyword tag options' the 'Include on Export' option is UNCHECKED.
However, the option 'Export Containing Keywords' is CHECKED.
This means that subordinate or child keywords are exported when the parent keyword is not.
In my scheme exportable keywords have the first letter in the upper-case and the rest is lower-case.
Again, this is a visual clue, to me, that the keyword should export.

I have 65 top-level keywords that are non-exportable and act as containers for the rest of my keywords:
ACTIONS
AGRICULTURE
ANIMAL NESTING STRUCTURES
ANIMALS
ARCHITECTURE
ART

... and so it goes all the way down to WORLD LOCATION

A hierarchy is the only way manage an extensive keyword collection, mine is 25 000 and growing all the time.
Also, using a flat list of keywords will limit one to about 2000 keywords if memory serves. there is some issue with the database that Lightroom is based on that limits this.

When keywords are applied to an image in Lightroom they are viewable in the keyword tags right at the top of the 'Keywording' subpanel to the right in the Library module.
To check what keywords have been applied to your image toggle between 'Keywords & Containing Keywords' that shows all the applied keywords and 'Will Export' that only shows those keywords that are designated as exportable.
Occasionally, I will find a fully capitalized keyword that is mean't to be non-exportable showing up in the 'Will Export' list.
It is a simple matter to go into the keyword list and edit the keyword tag in question and alter its exportable status.
Any change like this will be automatically updated in the catalog and every image with that keyword will update the metadata immediately.

Other use-cases for non-exportable keywords may be job descriptions, names of family members and friends, etc where the information is helpful to allow you to search for, and find, your images in Lightroom but you don't want those keywords to export.

Some individuals use non-exportable keywords as control keywords to guide their workflow.
Our own Victoria Brampton has a trick where she assigns the keyword '@notkeyworded' to every image on import.
She also has a Smart Collection designed to include every image containing this keyword.
When she is happy that an image is completely and appropriately keyworded the '@notkeyworded' keyword is removed from that image, or perhaps batch of images, and they drop out of the Smart Collection.
So, at all times she is aware of which images need keywording.

We certainly have not covered all that there is to know about keywording but you have a little insight now into how Lightroom handles things.

Tony Jay


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## johnbeardy (Apr 22, 2013)

Tony Jay said:


> A hierarchy is the only way manage an extensive keyword collection, mine is 25 000 and growing all the time.
> Also, using a flat list of keywords will limit one to about 2000  keywords if memory serves. there is some issue with the database that  Lightroom is based on that limits this.


Not quite, Tony. On Windows, LR can only display 2000 keywords in a flat list. This is because Adobe have failed to code around a Windows system limit on the size of individual controls.

I must have under 2000 keywords because I can see the last keyword in my flat list is "Zouave" and doubt I have any after that. I keep thinking I might introduce some hierarchy, but I got in a mess when I last tried (thanks to hierarchies differing slightly on the two computers on which I use Lightroom) and the great thing about a flat list is it's 100% consistent. I've never liked fake keywords either.

This shows the results of running Search & Replace's Parse and Audit command http://www.beardsworth.co.uk/toolbox/findreplace/images/SRT-audit-filter.jpg. I think it's in the free part of the plugin.

John


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## Tony Jay (Apr 22, 2013)

johnbeardy said:


> Not quite, Tony. On Windows, LR can only display 2000 keywords in a flat list. This is because Adobe have failed to code around a Windows system limit on the size of individual controls....
> 
> John


Thanks for the correction on the point of fact John - as it turns out I didn't remember the exact detail.

Tony Jay


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## johnbeardy (Apr 22, 2013)

It's "only" a display issue - the hidden keywords are in the database.

John


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## Slyleibo (Apr 22, 2013)

Thanks Tony, Thanks John,

OK, I’ve been reading up and my head is now exploding Keywords!

It’s pretty complex, is it not! I can see some advantages and good uses for hierarchies’ etc, but I’m not sure I can see the need to store a list of all the keywords I’ve ever used. Every image is different, so I’m going to have an ever-growing list – is there any point?

I do like the idea (above) of the '@notkeyworded' and I can see the point of a few useful little ‘sets’ etc.

At the moment I use one of these online keyword generators ….

http://www.arcurs.com/keywording/index.php

http://microstockgroup.com/tools/keyword.php

A few clicks and I have a keyword list. I can manually add/remove and I can reorder in Word if I want to. Then just copy/paste into Lightroom.

I just want the option to prevent the Alphabetical re-ordering that Lightroom applies!


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## Tony Jay (Apr 22, 2013)

Can't help with the re-ordering issue but I do promise you that an excellent keyword collection is a true necessity if you want to have any hope at success in the stock photography business.
Keywords and metadata are your life.

Tony Jay


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## Slyleibo (Apr 22, 2013)

Tony thanks - I'm sure your absolutely right about that. I am quite new at the Stock side of this, but at this stage just not sure if I see too much advantage in managing a permanent Keyword collection inside Lightroom rather than creating on the fly - on an image series by image series basis. Absolutely, willing to except that I might be naive about that though! I'm all ears and very grateful for any further hints and tips! 
ATB
Simon


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## Tony Jay (Apr 23, 2013)

Simon, if you have to be doing heavy-duty keywording, which you would have to do, then the last thing that you need is to have re-invent the wheel each time.
Also, spelling, consistency of keywording, and use of synonyms are also all important.
Hierarchical keywording means that selecting one keyword potentially adds all the keywords up the hierarchy - one for the price of potentially ten or whatever.
Believe me, one would want to streamline one's workflow as much as possible.

Tony Jay


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## mak65 (Apr 25, 2013)

I am not trying to hi-jack the thread but my question relates to keywords and what I would assume is a hierarchy.  

I have keywords with subwords, example, Texas > Houston.  I don't recall how I managed to do this but I don't want this matchup.  I want Texas and/or Houston to stand alone.  I have gone to an image and tried to remove Texas or Houston.  When I click off the image and back on to it the hierarchy is still there.  How do I delete this setup?  

Thanks in advance!


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## Tony Jay (Apr 25, 2013)

Hi Mak, pleased to make your acquaintance.

I am assuming that instead of Texas > Houston in your keyword tags you want Texas, Houston, whatever.
Technically Lr will list the keywords alphabetically.

Your desire is possible but it depends on how you created your hierarchy.
I think the easiest will be to get screenshots of the 'Edit Keyword Tag' dialog for both keywords.
My guess is that from there it should be easy to guide you.

Tony Jay

BTW this is not a hijack but an interesting question related to the original post.


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## Brad Snyder (Apr 25, 2013)

In general, you would simply drag the child keyword 'Houston' to the parent level 'Texas' in the keyword list. Haven't done this in a while, but it used to be *very* finicky with positioning the cursor exactly right to drop at the higher level. The cursor will change visible state when you're in the right spot.


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## clee01l (Apr 25, 2013)

mak65 said:


> I am not trying to hi-jack the thread but my question relates to keywords and what I would assume is a hierarchy.
> 
> I have keywords with subwords, example, Texas > Houston.  I don't recall how I managed to do this but I don't want this matchup.  I want Texas and/or Houston to stand alone.  I have gone to an image and tried to remove Texas or Houston.  When I click off the image and back on to it the hierarchy is still there.  How do I delete this setup?
> 
> Thanks in advance!


If you are looking at the Keywording panel you should see hierarchial keywords that have ambiguity listed with the ">" separating the child from the parent
In your example is should read Houston > Texas to distinguish it from another keyword hierarchy Houston > President (if both are in your keyword list)
If you look in your keyword list you either already have hierarchies like:

Texas
.....Bellaire
.....Cut and Shoot
.....Cypress
.....Dime Box
.....Houston 

Or you have a hierarchy with everything at the top (same) level:
Bellaire
Cut and Shoot
Cypress
Dime Box
Houston 
Texas
In the first case, if you assign "Houston", "Texas" (the parent) automatically gets assigned.  In the second case, You need to assign both "Houston" and "Texas".

If you should have "Houston > Texas" in your keyword list, you need to edit this to get rid of the "> Texas"  and create a keyword for "Texas"
As Brad has said, you can use "Drag and Drop" to restructure your hierarchal  keyword lisr


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## mak65 (Apr 26, 2013)

Thanks Tony, Brad and Cletus. When I get the chance I will try your advise and see what works.  I actually have a combination of the two heirarchies Cletus listed. I am wanting the second version (all at the top level).


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## Slyleibo (Apr 20, 2013)

Is it possible to stop Lightroom from re-sorting keywords alphabetically?

Also, is there anyway to get a count number of the keywords?

Thanks


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## clee01l (Apr 26, 2013)

mak65 said:


> I am wanting the second version (all at the top level).


In that case, you are wanting what is called a flat list.  I know of no way to achieve this quickly.  One method is to drag each of the child keywords  one by one to the space between the first keyword and the "Filter Keywords" text box and drop it when the thin line appears before the first keyword in the list.  The list will automatically sort it self alpha-numerically   So that "Texas"  will sort between  "Sam Houston" and "Wharton"

```
[COLOR=#333333]Bellaire[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#333333]Cut and Shoot[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#333333]Cypress[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#333333]Dime Box
[/COLOR]Katy
Louisiana
[COLOR=#333333]Houston [/COLOR]
[COLOR=#333333]Texas
[/COLOR]Wharton
Winnie
```

Another method might be to create a flat List out side of LR in an ASCII text editor and import this keyword list.
the imported list might look like this 


```
[COLOR=#333333]Bellaire[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#333333]Cut and Shoot[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#333333]Cypress[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#333333]Dime Box
[/COLOR]Katy
Louisiana
[COLOR=#333333]Houston [/COLOR]
[COLOR=#333333]Texas
[/COLOR]Wharton
Winnie
```
and the current keyword list would look like:

```
[COLOR=#202020]Texas[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#202020].....Bellaire[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#202020].....Cut and Shoot[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#202020].....Cypress[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#202020].....Dime Box[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#202020].....Houston [/COLOR]
```
After combining the keyword list would look like:

```
[COLOR=#333333]Bellaire[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#333333]Cut and Shoot[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#333333]Cypress[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#333333]Dime Box
[/COLOR]Katy
Louisiana
[COLOR=#333333]Houston [/COLOR]
[COLOR=#333333]Texas[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#202020].....Bellaire[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#202020].....Cut and Shoot[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#202020].....Cypress[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#202020].....Dime Box[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#202020].....Houston [/COLOR][COLOR=#333333]
[/COLOR]Wharton
Winnie
```
 Then a little more quickly perhaps you can select all of the images in (for example) "Cut and Shoot" (the child of Texas) and assign that to "Cut and Shoot" (the parent with no children) Once you have assigned all of the children keyword images to the parent of the same name, you can delete that child.

BTW, I hope everyone has enjoyed the local geography lesson.


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