# New Computer wanted



## LarryEdwards (Apr 20, 2020)

Big question time. What kind of windows 10 computer should I buy, and what components should be in it.  Will be shooting with a full frame mirror less and raw. Want to start from the ground up.


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## Paul_DS256 (Apr 20, 2020)

LarryEdwards said:


> What kind of windows 10 computer should I buy


With the issues I'm having with my wife's and my computer after the upgrade to Windows 10, I'd recommend looking at a MAC.


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## LarryEdwards (Apr 20, 2020)

Are your issues with Windows 10 and lightroom? Issues with the wife, you are on your own.


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## Conrad Chavez (Apr 20, 2020)

PC builder Puget Systems has a whole page on Lightroom Classic hardware benchmarks and recommendations.
https://www.pugetsystems.com/recomm...ightroom-Classic-141/Hardware-Recommendations


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## clee01l (Apr 20, 2020)

If you are very well trained at tuning your Windows setup, you should look at the typical specs for an iMac and spec your Windows computer accordingly.  

You could also ask yourself why does it have to be a Windows computer? Macs are a lot less complicated and standardized in hardware that is tested and selected to work together seamlessly. A built up Windows machine as too many variables with different hardware and drivers that have to work well together for everything to come out right. 

I worked exclusively in a Windows environment until ~2008 when I retired.  At that point I needed a computer for email, web browsing, and occasional word document and Lightroom.  None of these dictated that Windows was an essential OS.   Owning an iPhone and an iPad convinced mt that a Mac was better integrated with my other mobile devices.  Something to consider...


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## Paul_DS256 (Apr 20, 2020)

LarryEdwards said:


> Issues with the wife, you are on your own.


Thanks for making my day Larry! That is funny.


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## Paul_DS256 (Apr 20, 2020)

LarryEdwards said:


> Are your issues with Windows 10 and lightroom?


With Windows 10. Lightroom Classic runs fine.

I upgraded from Windows 7 to Windows 10 in December. My computer is Dell XPS 8700 from 2014. Some will say 'Well there's your problem'. It was working well with W7 and to be honest I'm a little offended about having to upgrade HW just because MS was dropping support for W7.

I was very disappointed in the quality of the software in Windows 10 given it's supposed maturity. It was behaving like an early release.. For every problem I encountered, there was an 'expert' on the net who would offer multiple solutions with the final one often being reinstall the OS. In other words, I was not the first to find these problems. When you post to answers.microsoft.com it seems only independent consultants are answering and in many cases provide a cut/paste answer around the area of your problem.

I also didn't understand why MS also added a new layer of implementation 'app packages'. Totally separate structure. Some can also be hard to remove if you are not going to use them. Fortunately, I found someone who posted a PowerShell script to remove these and associated registry entries.

I started way back with MS-DOS of floppies when you needed one floppy for the word processor app and one drive for the data so have seen OS's  evolve. I'm familiar with Windows, Unix and MACOS. Windows has become a disappointment to me. 

As to my wife's computer problems, there started to be problems with Tasks and Cloudberry Backup.  I found that the physical location of C:\USERS\NAME\DOCUMENTS had changed to another physical name. Because of the way MS does things with file pointers, C:\USERS\NAME\DOCUMENTS still worked. However, other utilities like Cloudberry Backup Program and Task Scheduler, which deal with the physical name, got screwed up. No idea how that happened since it's not something easy to change.

So, you may be like me with a history of Windows but my next computer will be a Mac.


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## davidedric (Apr 21, 2020)

I guess it depends how you use your computer.  I'm an "ordinary user" with basically a lot of photo processing software, Microsoft Office, various browsers, email and file management (both with non-microsoft clients).  (And now Zoom, like half the world.)  The computer was built 18 months ago in the UK by Chillblast, and is supposedly targetted on (amateur) photo work, so was delivered with Windows 10.  So far I have experienced precisely zero problems
I can't draw any definitive conclusions, of course, but I do wonder if the quality of the original build plays a disproportionate part.  Chillblast are not cheap, but they have built an excellent reputation.


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## LarryEdwards (Apr 21, 2020)

I like to thank everyone for their input. I also go back to the days of the 5 1/4 floppies.  I can't build or buy a dedicated computer just for lightroom as much as I would like to. I'm just a guy who enjoys photography (started at age 9).  I own too much windows software, but I will look into your suggestions.

Again thanks for all of your help.


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## Philippe Coudé du Foresto (Apr 21, 2020)

My main computer runs Windows 10. I've buid it by myself. I use it for a lot of thing, among them Lightroom, vidéo editing, email, etc. I've had no problem at all with Windows 10. It works fine with LR (or the reverse !)


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## clee01l (Apr 21, 2020)

LarryEdwards said:


> I own too much windows software, but I will look into your suggestions.


MacOS comes with free office software that even reads and writes to the proprietary Microsoft Office file format.  Adobe does not care which OS you use to run your license.   What other Windows only software do you really own (i.e. paid money for)?  I think the Microsoft (Office) 365 subscription license is platform independent.


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## Gnits (Apr 21, 2020)

When I last checked … 
Functions working in Office are missing or incomplete on same apps on Mac. A big example for me was OneNote.  This caused me major grief. Another major aspect re Office is that Macros do not work on Mac.  I have lots of workflows automated with macros or VBA scripts. . Eg Create a Word Doc.  I have a button programmed to save a pdf version of the current doc with the same name and same folder as the original.  As far as I am aware Access does not work on Mac.  This is significant if you are familiar with Office on Windows and heading to Office on a Mac.

In the world of Astrophotography, there are lots of apps on the Windows platform which are Windows only and Visa Versa. The crunch comes when trying to control say a telescope (small tripod and mount) and the vast majority of apps integrate to Windows or Linux platforms. The reverse is partially true, where there is a very good iPhone / iPad app to control a device called the Asair Pro.

I have just replaced my MacAir with a Windows laptop. Two reasons. 60% of the price of the equivalent spec MacBook Pro and 100% compatibility with Office and other apps that I use. This was a decision pending for a while as I really wanted to go the Ipad Pro route for travel.

 When I replace my main workstation in a few months time it will be a custom built Windows machine. I can put in the fastest components I can afford and can upgrade it as I choose. Biggest decision will be what graphics card to use and how Adobe are taking advantage of graphic cards at that point in time.

I am very pleased with the speed available for external storage via Thunderbolt 3  40gb/s ports.

For most people, sticking with what you are familiar with is usually the best option. Mac or Windows.


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## clee01l (Apr 21, 2020)

Gnits said:


> A big example for me was OneNote.


I use OneNote daily and it has everything that I need .  It runs on my iMac. My phone and my iPadPro.  I have total access to all of my  OneNote Data everywhere.   I was not aware that anyone used Access anymore.   I started to rewrite my Windows Scripts  in the Automate  scripting tool but I found that upon retiring All I really needed was a browser (Safari) an email app (Airmail) and  Adobe Creative cloud.   I still have the Microsoft 365 subscription but all I use now is OneNote.   I’ll just as quickly pick up Pages, Numbers or Keynote if I need an office document or anyone sends me one.

Living in the city, I donated my telescope to the local nature center years ago.

I  am glad to see that Windows Computers are finally getting TB3 ports.

I spent 20 or more years in the Microsoft world . I got tired of having to constantly work to keep my computer in tune and running smoothly. The Mac learning curve was short and not as steep having developed a familiarity with iOS.

I see too many people come here with Windows related problems and Lightroom to ever want to go back to a Windows environment myself.    And there are reasons to stay locked into a Windows environment.  Like your astronomy apps.

The point I really wanted to make is to ask your self if there are alternative Operation Systems that will meet your needs. I’ve used VMware Fusion to run a Windows license on my Mac.   Also LINUX in a Virtual Machine.    Microsoft is the only  mfig that charges for their Operating system  So I dropped my VMware license .

   No matter which you come here with to ask your LR  question, we will help.


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## Philippe Coudé du Foresto (Apr 22, 2020)

> I see too many people come here with Windows related problems and Lightroom


I didn't do statistics, I was in the impression of the contrary from here and other forum. It seemed to me that there were more Mac users reporting problems. But may be it's because there is more LR users on Mac than on Windows? 
BTW, the latest version of MacOS (Catalina) has caused a lot of problems to LR users. Granted, the latest version of Catalina seems to have fixed most of them. But the change in the way Catalina handles security is still causing problems (which, as a can see, can be easily fixed by changeing somme security parameters).
My opinion is that both MacOS and Windows have pros and cons (not the same, of course) and the better is the one you're more familiar/comfortable with.


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## clee01l (Apr 22, 2020)

Philippe Coudé du Foresto said:


> ... But may be it's because there is more LR users on Mac than on Windows?
> BTW, the latest version of MacOS (Catalina) has caused a lot of problems to LR users. Granted, the latest version of Catalina seems to have fixed most of them. But the change in the way Catalina handles security is still causing problems (which, as a can see, can be easily fixed by changeing somme security parameters).
> My opinion is that both MacOS and Windows have pros and cons (not the same, of course) and the better is the one you're more familiar/comfortable with.


 You are right to point that out.  I've been around a few years and not to long ago Adobe introduced an new version (with GPU acceleration). It caused an untold number of headaches for Windows users because there were too many permutations of hardware and software and drivers that through things into a real firestorm. Apple that controls the hardware and supplies the operating system had some issues but small in number relative to the Windows users.   It is that Apple standardization that IMO gives it the edge.

The security change with Catalina surprised some Mac Users. This was not a bug but an education issue that Apple failed to anticipate. You are correct that there are pros and cons with each. The biggest "con" with Apple is the initial price. Yet there are people that will pay $4000-$5000 USD on a powerful Windows machine. When I was a Widows user, I spent a lot of time tuning the OS. In doing so, Lightroom Windows performance was always on the same par as I find the performance in MacOS. I just think Windows users need a higher level of computer literacy than Mac users.

However this topic should never be about Operating System Wars.   And hopefully this OP has enough information now  to make an educated decision.


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## prbimages (Apr 23, 2020)

clee01l said:


> And hopefully this OP has enough information now to make an educated decision.


Actually, the original question was "_What kind of windows 10 computer should I buy, and what components should be in it._" I don't see that anyone has addressed this question at all (yet) ...


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## clee01l (Apr 23, 2020)

prbimages said:


> Actually, the original question was "_What kind of windows 10 computer should I buy, and what components should be in it._" I don't see that anyone has addressed this question at all (yet) ...



I think I did in my first response 
“If you are very well trained at tuning your Windows setup, you should look at the typical specs for an iMac and spec your Windows computer accordingly”


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Gnits (Apr 23, 2020)

Focusing on Windows.
There are lots of variables but probably the first few questions to answer might be:
1. Laptop or Desktop
2. If Desktop, then is it a standard store purchase or custom build
3. Finally, an estimate of the volume of data to be accumulated (say per annum).
*If Laptop or  Standard Store Desktop purchase.*
Your Budget will determine how much memory, what cpu, size of ssd and quality of screen is possible.
I purchased a laptop recently with Core I7 9th Gen, 16GB memory, 1TB of very fast M2 SSD and a 4k AdobeRGB screen with Nvidia 1650 graphics card for aprox €2000. I did not want to spend that much, but the demise of my MacAir forced me to purchase something.

No matter what modern device you buy, based on current technology, make sure you have at least one Thunderbolt 3 40gb/s port.
You can use this port either as a docking station or for fast external storage , external display and lots of other combinations.

As a laptop will usually have limited storage, then you may consider using your valuable ssd space for your catalogue and travel images (or most recent images) and store the bulk of your images on external storage.  If purchasing new external storage consider options which will take advantage of the speed of the Thunderbolt 3 port.

Later this year I intend to purchase a custom built workstation.
This will have  something like the following and may change.
Ryzen 3900 processor
32GB of fast memory
Graphics Card (tbd, based on recommendations at that point in time and how much Adobe are using the graphics card for Lr and Ps)
High End Motherboard (to ensure max bandwith for internal drives and graphics cards and most efficient handling of heat generated by fast cpu's and graphics cards. Details to be worked out as I do not want fans running all the time).
Drive 1 M2 Nvme SSD 1TB for operating system and apps only
Drive 2 M2 Nvme SSD 512GB for Lr Catalog and Lr/PS cache
Drive 3. Sata 6 internal drive 7200 rpm  8-10TB for data/image storage
Drive 4 Sata 6 internal 7200 rpm 8-10TB for fast internal data backup.
At least 1 Thunderbolt 3 40gb/s port.

I may replace drive 3 and 4 with a Thunderbolt 3 disk enclosure, which will allow me easily share my main image repository with my recent travel images on my laptop. My new laptop may allow me to push back building a new workstation, as I have not had the opportunity to travel with it yet and experience how it performs in a real world scenario.

I also backup my data to an external nas drive (slow but fine for backups).

These may appear as extreme specs, but my experience has been that a well specified machine lasts a lot longer and is cheaper than replacing in  a few years time.  My last custom built workstation is still going strong after 10 years, but it was not built to handle 60GB image files.

There are lots of combinations possible between the Laptop and Workstation described above.

At the time  I was buying the laptop there stores were running out of supplies, but was lucky to get a good deal. Not sure if the current corvid scenario may present some good deals as the initial surge for new remote working hardware has passed.

I am happy to try and answer any questions arising.


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## Paul_DS256 (Apr 23, 2020)

clee01l said:


> It caused an untold number of headaches for Windows users because there were too many permutations of hardware and software and drivers


The CTO of one software company I worked for talked about 'The Certification Matrix of Death' because we were asked to confirm our software on so many platforms and combinations of peripherals. I agree with Cleetus. The available HW combinations for Windows is both a strength and weakness. The latter is what is causing me grief presently with W10. For one problem I'm caught between Dell, Intel Storage Technology  and Microsoft.


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## PhilBurton (Apr 26, 2020)

Conrad Chavez said:


> PC builder Puget Systems has a whole page on Lightroom Classic hardware benchmarks and recommendations.
> https://www.pugetsystems.com/recomm...ightroom-Classic-141/Hardware-Recommendations


I build all my own desktop systems.  I know that most people don't, and a system from Puget Systems is probably a good choice compared with an off-the-shelf model from Dell, Lenovo, HP, etc.

It is a great site for people who need computer advice and perhaps a computer to run Lightroom (and Photoshop) as well as many other creative/design/engineering applications,  Just be aware that their systems are pricey because they are using all high end components.  I just rebuilt my system (new motherboard, CPU, RAM, NMVe SSD and graphics card to follow) for less than half of the cost of a new system from Puget Systems, even using some high-end components.  To be fair, I am reusing the case, power supply, three hard disks, and keyboard/mouse and display from my old system.  (I will post details soon.)



Phil Burton


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## PhilBurton (Apr 26, 2020)

LarryEdwards said:


> I like to thank everyone for their input. I also go back to the days of the 5 1/4 floppies.  I can't build or buy a dedicated computer just for lightroom as much as I would like to. I'm just a guy who enjoys photography (started at age 9).  I own too much windows software, but I will look into your suggestions.
> 
> Again thanks for all of your help.


Same here, for 8" floppies (and punch cards on IBM mainframes.)


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## Philippe Coudé du Foresto (Apr 27, 2020)

> Same here, for 8" floppies (and punch cards on IBM mainframes.)


Same here, plus the punch ribbon !


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## Gnits (Apr 27, 2020)

Aside.
I had the joy of writing apps in assembler, then manually converting the assembler to machine code, then entering the machine code into specific memory locations. Apps were saved by writing memory directly to paper tape.

These machines were regarded at the time as a major advance from using paper cards. The apps I wrote allowed data to be captured in a room full of data capture machines, which were then transferred by digital cassette for batch  processing by a more powerful back-end  computer .
I moved from that environment to writing complex Cobol programs.  Many of the expert assembler programmers were unable to make the transition to 3rd and 4th generation languages.  Interesting times.  Maybe what I called paper tape was 'punch ribbon'.


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## Philippe Coudé du Foresto (Apr 27, 2020)

> Maybe what I called paper tape was 'punch ribbon'.


Or the reverse !

On the computer I worked with at that time, there was 24 switches with corresponding lights on the front panel. I used these switches to enter a 24 bits memory address, then changed the switch to enter a value (24 bits) at this address. I could also, using a rotary switch, select a register of the processor and enter a value in it using these 24 switches. This was used (and very useful) for special debugging and always impressed the customer!


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## Paul_DS256 (Apr 28, 2020)

Philippe Coudé du Foresto said:


> Same here, plus the punch ribbon !


Ribbon? Luxury!  You must have been using an IBM 029 which would print along the top of the card as you typed. Most of the time I had to use a 026 then find typo's after the first run


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## davidedric (Apr 29, 2020)

Or.........Punching paper tape to drive a PDP8 - the tape was impossible to splice reliably, so any mistake meant starting over.  The added wrinkle was that the computer was driving a goniometer inside a nuclear reactor, so you couldn't just pop in to see how it was doing


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## Gnits (Apr 29, 2020)

Aside.

I remember been jealous of a Digital pdp/11, because it was nice and small, even though I had mainframes to work with.

I remember reading/enjoying  a book called. “The Soul Of The Machine”  which was an inside look at the development of a Data General computer.

BTW . The data prep machines I wrote apps for were Burroughs.

Coming back to today. We now have gone full circle, from punch cards and mono character screens, many current apps cannot yet properly deal with high resolution screens. Where legacy apps are not written to specifically cater for high rez screens, in many cases, the screen is rendered as a low res image and scaled up to the rez of the screen, and looks horrible.  This will fade as old apps are shelved and updates to current apps catch up.


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## Paul_DS256 (Apr 29, 2020)

Gnits said:


> The Soul Of The Machine”


Great book


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## PhilBurton (May 6, 2020)

Picking up from several threads:

IBM 7040 with tape drives..  System 360/50 and 370/155.  IBM 1130 with 4K words.  Fortran II, Fortran IV, and PL/1 (various compilers).  GPSS.

At one point in my career, my company was bought by Unisys.  Lots of old Burroughs people there.  BTOS anyone?  Previously I had worked for Shugart Associates, which invented the 5 1/4" floppy drive.

Phil Burton


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## PhilBurton (May 6, 2020)

Gnits said:


> (stuff deleted)
> 
> Later this year I intend to purchase a custom built workstation.
> This will have  something like the following and may change.
> ...



About two weeks ago, I built up a new system.

Ryzen 3900X CPU, because it was only slightly more expensive than the 3800, which was my original choice.
ASUS Republic of Gamers Strix-E motherboard.  (I am not a gamer, but I wanted the build quality and built-in WiFi)
Crucial Ballistix RAM, 2 x 16 GB, 3600 speed.
Sabrent Rocket 1 TB NMVe SSD drive, which will replace the SSD I now use.  For Windows and Programs, DATA including the LR catalog and cache files, and some program download images.
I reused the rest of my old 2014 system, including the case and power supply, adapter card for an extra USB 3 internal header, 7200 rpm HDDs for bulk storage of photo files and backup drive, DVD drive, and drive bay flash card reader.

For now I'm using my very old nVidia 660 graphics card, because I am with Gnits.  I haven't yet decided on which card to buy but it will be nVidia.  I had originally intended to get an AMD 5000-series card, until I read all the reviews that described poor  quality, unstable drivers that lead to lots of system crashes.

If you live in the USA, consider getting a Payboo card from this store.  B&H Photo Video Digital Cameras, Photography, Camcorders   No sales tax on out of state orders, and free two-day shipping.   Prices are extremely competitive with Amazon or Newegg.


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## Philippe Coudé du Foresto (May 7, 2020)

@Phil Burton : I worked for Burroughs (later Unisys) during all my 40 years career. I started with the B6700 and B1700. I liked BTOS (name of CTOS when installed on the Burroughs B20) It was a very interesting and a real "Plug&Play" OS.


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## Gnits (May 7, 2020)

Phil, Hoping that you are satisfied with performance of the new config.  Create a folder for Adobe Cache Files on the fast SSD and configure Lr and Ps to use these specific cache folders (raw cache and scratch disks).  It might default to this drive anyway, but better to be sure.

The best fun I had with hardware were Stratus and Tandem fault tolerant machines, except for one incident, where a Tandem engineer was doing planned maintenance and was really nervous before bringing the disk system back on line, so decided to double check his config by opening up the disk carriage on the fault tolerant drive system.  He had now disconnected all drives from the system and atm's and foreign currency trading across a continent went down. It almost caused a national security incident.  We used large Tandems also for Real Time Gross Settlement between the banks and the central bank with huge volumes of transactions.  The word computer virus was not know then as all systems were closed systems. Not sure if they were happy times as the stress levels were high.  The biggest shock was replacing old legacy mainframe systems with modern client server systems.  I could not believe how inexpensive the server and disk systems were on the new system. 

BTW.  Back to Lr/Ps.  The gains we are making on improved cpus and disk drive speed we are losing because we are now feeding 4k plus high rez screens....


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## PhilBurton (May 8, 2020)

Gnits said:


> Phil, Hoping that you are satisfied with performance of the new config.  Create a folder for Adobe Cache Files on the fast SSD and configure Lr and Ps to use these specific cache folders (raw cache and scratch disks).  It might default to this drive anyway, but better to be sure.



I have already noticed a significant performance improvement just in working in the Library Grid view.



> The best fun I had with hardware were Stratus and Tandem fault tolerant machines, except for one incident, where a Tandem engineer was doing planned maintenance and was really nervous before bringing the disk system back on line, so decided to double check his config by opening up the disk carriage on the fault tolerant drive system.  He had now disconnected all drives from the system and atm's and foreign currency trading across a continent went down. It almost caused a national security incident.  We used large Tandems also for Real Time Gross Settlement between the banks and the central bank with huge volumes of transactions.  The word computer virus was not know then as all systems were closed systems. Not sure if they were happy times as the stress levels were high.  The biggest shock was replacing old legacy mainframe systems with modern client server systems.  I could not believe how inexpensive the server and disk systems were on the new system.


Great industry war story.  IBM always had extremely high markups on components for mainframes.  That spawned an entire PCM, "Plug Compatible Mainframes," and compatable disk drive vendors.  Remember Amdahl?  Storage Technology Corporation?  (Yes, I know I'm dating myself.)


> BTW.  Back to Lr/Ps.  The gains we are making on improved cpus and disk drive speed we are losing because we are now feeding 4k plus high rez screens....


It's like an arms face.    it's also a justification for Adobe to limit support for older releases and older hardware and operating system versions.

Phil


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## Gnits (May 8, 2020)

Lr/PS..... Arms race is a good analogy .... but who remembers the Dreadnoughts or later still... the Cold War.

Mainframe components.   We bought a small mainframe utility, for about 2k, which was peanuts for mainframe software, which had a massive impact on  efficiency of our systems programmers in terms of porting JCL decks to production.   At the time good mainframe System Programmers (remember CICS)  were getting a 1000$ a day.


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## clee01l (May 8, 2020)

Gnits said:


> Lr/PS..... Arms race is a good analogy .... but who remembers the Dreadnoughts or later still... the Cold War.
> 
> Mainframe components.   We bought a small mainframe utility, for about 2k, which was peanuts for mainframe software, which had a massive impact on  efficiency of our systems programmers in terms of porting JCL decks to production.   At the time good mainframe System Programmers (remember CICS)  were getting a 1000$ a day.


I never got $1000 a day.    In the '70s I world for the largest consumer of magnetic tape in the world after the Federal government.   The procedure was to create massive punch cards decks along with a list of tapes for the Tape Library for submission to the mainframe.   I had acmes to a tecktronics workstation and discovering that I could run my own jobs from there.   I then figured out how to produce card images.   Management was able to phase out the keypunch department after I walked a  tape request list to the library with no punch cards.


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## Gnits (May 8, 2020)

We had two systems programmers, both brilliant, on very good salaries ans a lot less than 1000 per day, but from time  to time we had to get in contract system programmers who could command such rates.

We had a full time  qualified librarian to manage our library of tapes.   I remember the fear and trepidation as the day approached to migrating from paper librarian records to a computerised system, integrated into the operations consoles.  Thankfully, it went smoothly.  The tape management system was also an example of a non IBM 3 rd party system.

I do remember the process of migrating applications from development into production, which required the use of punched cards to set up the production jcl.  As a systems analyst at that stage I was not allowed near these processes for security reasons, but could see them happening thru the glass walls into the ops rooms. Amazing what we can drag from our memories when prompted.  I also remember seeing the first colour monitor (no pixels, just low definition  characters). By the time I arrived, we had key to disk data prep, but everything was punched for batch processing.


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## davidedric (May 8, 2020)

I think we need a new thread in the Lounge for these remebrances


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## clee01l (May 9, 2020)

davidedric said:


> I think we need a new thread in the Lounge for these remebrances


I hope the OP has gotten his answer before the thread digressed.  "Elvis has left the building" some time ago it appears.


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## sssahil6052 (Jul 21, 2020)

The Windows 10 currently working on my computer was created by myself 2 months ago,everything is fine.


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