# How do you deal with virtual copy and renaming ?



## AlexM75 (Jun 23, 2016)

Hi there. 

I creat a virtual copy of a file (for ex a BW version), then, later, before exporting , I will rename all my files. 
At this point, LR, used to rename the virtual copy as an individual picture. So each version will have a different name, as : pic-01, pi-c02, pic-03 , .... 

I want LR to rename virtual copy the same name that the orignal Raw file . 
For ex : my raw file : "pic-01" , and the virtual copy "pic-01-BW" .

The idea, is that later, if a client tell me : "can you use the pic-01-BW" , I can easily find it on a HD (with the name of the original file) , without the need to use LR .....

So, how do you deal with that ? I 'm sure you have some idea ?


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## Johan Elzenga (Jun 23, 2016)

Virtual copies have a copy name. The default is 'Copy 1', 'Copy 2', but in the metadata panel you can change that to 'BW'. Then on export, rename by using the filename + copyname.


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## AlexM75 (Jun 23, 2016)

Thank you Johan for this good answer ! 
I didn't know that there was a "copy name" for virtual copie.  

What about, if you need to modify you RAW file in an other software (for Exemple PS ) ? When you will save it, it will automically create a .TIFF (or whatever extension), linked to the original RAW file in a stack . Right ? 

Then, you want to keep the TIFF file in you selection, and not the RAW file, BUT you  also want to rename booth with the same name ? (so if you need to selected the raw files again, it will have the same name that the Tiff one) . How do you deal in this case ?


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## clee01l (Jun 23, 2016)

Both the Master copy and the Virtual copy use the same original file and apply different develop instructions.  Usually there is no need to rename files on export. To keep the exports separate and to avoid file name collisions on export, incorporating the Copy Name on Export solve the problem.  I use this naming template for all of my exports:
"{Filename}.{Copy name}_LR".  If the Copy Name field is null, the resulting file name is "NEF_1234._LR.JPG"


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## Johan Elzenga (Jun 23, 2016)

AlexM75 said:


> Thank you Johan for this good answer !
> I didn't know that there was a "copy name" for virtual copie.
> 
> What about, if you need to modify you RAW file in an other software (for Exemple PS ) ? When you will save it, it will automically create a .TIFF (or whatever extension), linked to the original RAW file in a stack . Right ?
> ...



When you modify the image in other software, Lightroom sends a tiff or psd to the external editor. That tiff comes back into Lightroom. You can let Lightroom automatically stack it with the original raw file, but you don't have to. You can rename this tiff in the metadata panel too, so you can add 'BW' if you used Photoshop to make it B&W..


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## Jimmsp (Jun 23, 2016)

I will add a name to each file I export, similar to what Cletus wrote above. However, my naming scheme is based on what the exported file will be used for. I generally only export for print or web use. For print, I add the print size (eg, 8x10), and I add the word "post" for anything that will be on the web someplace. I will send copies of some files for publication in a monthly newsletter, and add the word "print" to the file name, and export them to a subfolder appropriately named, eg, "for Bob" or "for newsletter". I deal with other processing properties like B&W or panoramics or HDR by adding an appropriate key word. I then use LR to find what I want. I also have smart collections set up for B&W, etc.


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## AlexM75 (Jun 23, 2016)

JohanElzenga said:


> When you modify the image in other software, Lightroom sends a tiff or psd to the external editor. That tiff comes back into Lightroom. You can let Lightroom automatically stack it with the original raw file, but you don't have to. You can rename this tiff in the metadata panel too, so you can add 'BW' if you used Photoshop to make it B&W..




Thank you Johan, 

Sorry , maybe I was not that clear in my question (sorry my english is not good).

I have a folder with all my selected images in raw. I retouch most of the images in LR. When the job is completely done, I give a "clean" name for each image . 
YYYYMMDD-0001.CR2 for exemple.
Then I export them in JPG, and then put them on a web galerie.

If i do all the work in LR it's pretty easy. 
The question come when I need to edit the photo in PS because I can't do in LR (ex : beauty retouch).  I will then have a Tiff or PSD file, as you say. For exemple , after retouch in PS, I will have IMG_0123.CR2 and IMG_0123.TIFF. 

I don't want to keep the Raw files in my selection folder, I just want to keep the TIFF. I will need to rename all files with clean name. AND I need to keep the same name for the .CR2 (that I don't want to keep) and the TIFF ... I want them named .   YYYYMMDD-0123.CR2 and  YYYYMMDD-0123.TIFF.


One solution, could be to rename all files before edit them in PS ..... But..... is not my intuitive way to do ... Sometime you edit a picture, and them you realise the picture is not good, and then you put in at trash .... In these situation (if you rename before), I would make photo missing... and that's not clean...


So ? how do you deal with your workflow ?


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## Johan Elzenga (Jun 23, 2016)

I don't use filenames at all as part of my workflow. There is absolutely no need to do that. I can do anything with keywords, and if there's something I think I can't do with keywords, then I can use other metadata fields like the Captions field. A file obviously needs to have _some_ name, so I rename my images on import based on their capture date & time and then I never touch that again.

On export, I can add the copy name if needed as we already discussed.


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## AlexM75 (Jun 23, 2016)

oh .... yeah..... but that mean that you nead all the time LR (or an other library software that can read the keywords)


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## Johan Elzenga (Jun 23, 2016)

AlexM75 said:


> oh .... yeah..... but that mean that you nead all the time LR (or an other library software that can read the keywords)



Of course, but that is why I use Lightroom. I don't need other library software and if I send a photo to Photoshop I don't need the file name to deal with the result.


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## AlexM75 (Jun 23, 2016)

well , thank Johan , I understand your philosophy for your workflow (which is probably what adobe recommend). 
I'm maybe a little bit more old-school , but I love when I can organise my work in different folders, with names .... So If I just need to take my HD with me, I will still have all my work without the need of a specific software. 
So , If somone else have a solution about the question for my way of workflow, I will take it !


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## Johan Elzenga (Jun 23, 2016)

AlexM75 said:


> I don't want to keep the Raw files in my selection folder, I just want to keep the TIFF. I will need to rename all files with clean name. AND I need to keep the same name for the .CR2 (that I don't want to keep) and the TIFF ... I want them named .   YYYYMMDD-0123.CR2 and  YYYYMMDD-0123.TIFF.



You can simply do that by making a renaming preset as follows: YYYYMMDD-'Custom Text'. When renaming both files, fill in '0123' for the text and you're done.


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## rob211 (Jun 23, 2016)

AlexM75 said:


> I have a folder with all my selected images in raw. I retouch most of the images in LR. When the job is completely done, I give a "clean" name for each image .
> YYYYMMDD-0001.CR2 for exemple.
> Then I export them in JPG, and then put them on a web galerie.
> 
> ...


I don't quite understand the "clean name" issue. But as noted why not just rename 'em all at import with the date prefix? It doesn't really matter what it's named once it's trashed. Are you saying that you use the Finder to trash it, instead of Lr? if so, even when it shows as "missing" in Lr you just delete it from Lr as well.

You seem to be using the filenames to remind yourself of something or to mark files in some way. Filenames are poor methods of doing that, as you are seeing.

And you are incorrect that information like keywords requires Lr. It doesn't. Do a "get info" in the Finder and you'll see the keywords, provided you write them to metadata in Lr. And they are visible in Bridge too. Even if you use "Open..." in Ps, you can just hit command-I to see the info and the keywords before opening the file. Or view the keywords in Ps.


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## Johan Elzenga (Jun 23, 2016)

I assume that he means that if he trashes YYYYMMDD-0123, then the grid shows photo 'YYYYMMDD-0122', followed by photo 'YYYYMMDD-0124'. Personally I couldn't care less if that happened, but for some people that means that an image is 'missing' and that disturbs them...


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## rob211 (Jun 23, 2016)

JohanElzenga said:


> I assume that he means that if he trashes YYYYMMDD-0123, then the grid shows photo 'YYYYMMDD-0122', followed by photo 'YYYYMMDD-0124'. Personally I couldn't care less if that happened, but for some people that means that an image is 'missing' and that disturbs them...


Yes, I can sorta see that. Frankly I could let Lr rename 'em all to the UUID for the database, like "D5B317F8-323B-4549-9F41-FBC999793CD2" and it wouldn't matter. But I thought maybe the "clean name" was perhaps a proxy for an indication it was picked or selected for export, or had been exported, or had been edited, or something like that. The date is in the image, so adding a date, unless it's completely redundant, means the date is for something else. But I could be wrong, and probably am.


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## AlexM75 (Jun 23, 2016)

JohanElzenga said:


> I assume that he means that if he trashes YYYYMMDD-0123, then the grid shows photo 'YYYYMMDD-0122', followed by photo 'YYYYMMDD-0124'. Personally I couldn't care less if that happened, but for some people that means that an image is 'missing' and that disturbs them...




LOL. Yes Johan , it's exactly what I was saying. 
I do wedding photography and other kind of event. When I deliver files to client , I give them a folder like that.

YYYYMMDD-0001.JPG
YYYYMMDD-0002.JPG
YYYYMMDD-0003.JPG
....
YYYYMMDD-0124.JPG 

every pictures are in : YYYYMMDD folder
So when I need to found a folder or a picture, it's easy. 

If one picture seams to miss (miss the number YYYYMMDD-0123 in you exemple) , I'm 100%  sure that some client will ask me for the missing pic. 
— " why is there missing a picture ? could you send it to us ? Even if it's a bad picture ? Please .... "

It's also useful when I upload/ or copy / or move, pictures . It's easy to see how many pictures there is (to be sure , no one missing), and , of course, the last pictures name is the number of how many picture there is ...  That's a "Clean rename" for me . 
And years after years, I can easily found a pictures, even I have change the software I work with . Bridge/LR/Capture One/ etc . 

Thank you Rob for thoses informations. It's true i don't use "keywords", because "filename" technique is enought for me. (I don't put specific keywords like "Chinese wedding", "blue dress wedding"," nice bride", or whatever.... I just need the name....) . No need more. 
And most of software, for editing a album for ex, they work well with the name (and not always with keywords).

Nevertheless I understand how do you work, and what do you suggest to catalog the pic.... 
Maybe I could think to a new way to rename my pic ? Have you any suggest that would stay a "Clean" rename  ?


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## AlexM75 (Jun 23, 2016)

JohanElzenga said:


> You can simply do that by making a renaming preset as follows: YYYYMMDD-'Custom Text'. When renaming both files, fill in '0123' for the text and you're done.


And Johan, thank you. That work, but it's not an automatique way to do..... If I have to do that for each image , It would take to long !


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## Johan Elzenga (Jun 23, 2016)

AlexM75 said:


> And Johan, thank you. That work, but it's not an automatique way to do..... If I have to do that for each image , It would take to long !



True, but you only do that for a picture that gets edited in Photoshop. So do it right after you did the edit.


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## AlexM75 (Jun 23, 2016)

No . I do I with all picture with hight ISO number, using the amazing talents of DXO. And for a verry old and dark place, it could be some time 200/300 pictures.... So I can't do it manually ... that why I'm looking for an automatic solution.


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## rob211 (Jun 23, 2016)

Ah, so it's sequences. Most of use do that on export, since it's relatively automatic. That way there are never gaps. But that leaves problem: the client will call referencing a certain jpeg, and you have to match it with say the RAW in the catalog. In cases like that I make a collection for the photos I'm gonna export. Then I use the same rename template to rename the originals, say dngs, as I would the exported JPEGs. If I have originals that I don't export, they keep the original names. So it's instantly clear they weren't exported. And they'd sort different in the Finder or whatever.

It really seems, though, that the only problem you have is WHEN you rename. If you do at the point you send the files it would seem that there would be no gaps or inconsistencies. Like many of us do for slideshows too, or anything where a sequence is important.

I used clientname_sequencenumber_originalfilename.jpeg though. If I oopsied and had to send off one that I forgot or something I just inserted it within the sequence, although I don't remember exactly if I used a decimal, or another place. Just so it would still sort properly.


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## tspear (Jun 23, 2016)

I was looking at a friend's daughter's first communion photos recently and noticed the photographer did something completely different.
The photos are named with a three letter camera prefix followed by a timestamp. So along the lines of:

TSC-06232016-132323.JPG

The photographer included in the packet a brief explanation on the file name (camera, date, time including seconds) and the process flow she used; and how to request copies of specific images. Removed the whole idea of sequences I see so many professional photographers seem stuck with.

No idea if possible in Lr, but was an interesting approach.


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## AlexM75 (Jun 23, 2016)

I rename all files that will be exported, at the end (just before the exportation) . So ... in a way .. it's almost the same result than using your collection technic ? right ? Or is there something I don't get with the collection ? 

Your solution if to include the original file name in the name of the finale file (clientname_sequencenumber_originalfilename.jpeg). It Is a solution .... note very "elegant" , but a solution who works.... ( It's the solution to found  easily, the original DNG, that you have used to created the .TIff file in PS, before renaming it for exportation).


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## rob211 (Jun 23, 2016)

By default if I use an external editor I append something to the end of the filename, like _pano or _HDR like most plugins or Lr does. So it becomes part of the "original" filename (since the TIFF IS an original file) and my renaming templates just add to the beginning of that filename, like "JoeClient_003_P00235_HDR.tiff" or something. The exif timestamps are still in the files, so the files can always be sorted chronologically, so I don't see any need to add that into the filename, YMMV.

The collection is just a temporary place to gather all the files I'm gonna export. Like a photoset for a publishing service. Or filtering on a pick flag. In the collection, though, I can create a custom order by dragging images around. By using the client's name (which is in a keyword) and a label or another keyword "for export" eg) I can create a smart collection and have it auto update as I edit or add new photos. Like if someone sent me a bunch of cellphone jpgs to throw into the mix.


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