# Syncing Keywords



## clee01l (Jul 2, 2021)

A Little background:
When I began using Lightroom (now Classic) I established a hierarchal keyword list.  This worked well for me until I started using Lightroom (cloudy)   At some point, my keyword lists got into a jumbled mess with som hierarchic keywords and some flat.  Sometimes the same keyword in the hierarchy and as a flat keyword. 

Once I determined how Classic and cloudy keywords interacted with each other  (or didn't interact) I kind of dropped the keyword part of my workflow.   I have no decided to replace the Classic hierarchy with a flat list.  I would ideally like this flat list appear in Classic and Cloudy.   I am hopeful that at some point Adobe will sync cloudy and classic keywords as a two way exchange.  For Now,   I understand that keywords in Classic will not sync to existing images in Cloudy but will get added to cloudy when new proxy images are added to cloudy from Classic.   Once an image is in Cloudy, changes in Classic keyword are not made in the "cloudy" keywords associated with that image  And changes in cloudy are not propagated back to Classic. 

Optimistically hoping that there will one day exist a common syncable keyword process between Classic and Cloudy,   I want to get my Classic Keywords  clean and usable again.   For now I am content to convert my hierarchal keyword list to a flat list.   BUT,  I have a problem with the keywords that are in cloudy.   I would like to remove these keywords in some batch process so that no keywords are stored in my cloudy library.    With 20,000 images in my cloudy library,   I can not find a way to remove  keywords except one image at a time.    Does any one have any suggestions?


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## Johan Elzenga (Jul 2, 2021)

clee01l said:


> For Now, I understand that keywords in Classic will not sync to existing images in Cloudy but will get added to cloudy when new proxy images are added to cloudy from Classic.


But only if you have no smart previews yet for these images, and use 'Save Metadata to Files' before you sync them!
Sorry, no answer on how to remove the keywords from the cloud.


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## Jim Wilde (Jul 2, 2021)

clee01l said:


> I would like to remove these keywords in some batch process so that no keywords are stored in my cloudy library.    With 20,000 images in my cloudy library,   I can not find a way to remove  keywords except one image at a time.    Does any one have any suggestions?


There's not any batch process to remove keywords, AFAIK. One at a time sounds about right, though it would probably be quicker doing one keyword at a time rather than one image at a time. But "quicker" is a relative term.....

You could use either of the keyword filters, select the first keyword which populates the grid with all the images that contain the selected keyword. Cmd+A to select them all, click on the Keywords icon near the bottom of the right-hand toolbar, that opens the keywording panel. The keywords will be in two sections, the top one being "Applied to All" containing those keywords which appear in all the selected photos, and "Applied to Some" containing all keywords that appear in one or more (but not all) of the selected photos. In the top section, hover over the filtered keyword and it will turn red with a red line through it. Click on it in that state and it is deleted. Rinse and Repeat.

It would perhaps be quicker to not use the keywords filter at all. Instead, click on All Photos, Cmd+A to select them all, then open the keywording panel. If you have any keywords in the "Applied to All" section, do the hover and click procedure to delete those keywords. Then start in the "Applied to Some" list. Hover over the first one and it will turn blue, clicking on it will add the keyword to all the selected images and promotes the keyword to the "Applied to All" section. Then you can hover again, wait for the red text with line, click to delete. It's a toss up which "method" would be the faster, the second one requires less filtering on the keywords list, but it also asks you every time you want to apply the keyword to more than 100 images, or delete a keyword from more that 100 images, which will slow things down again.

I've got nothing better than that, sorry.


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## Martin Owen (Jul 5, 2021)

I think this is related….

I have used the hierarchical keywords in Classic.  I’m happy with that.  I have understood that the keywords will not sync between Classic and Cloudy/mobile, so have not used the keywords in the latter.  However, I see that some keywords do sync from Classic to Cloudy/Mobile for some images, but not for others.  I can’t see Abby rhyme no reason as to why some do and some don’t. 

Is there an explanation?    Is something I’m doing inadvertently?


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## Jim Wilde (Jul 5, 2021)

Martin Owen said:


> However, I see that some keywords do sync from Classic to Cloudy/Mobile for some images, but not for others.  I can’t see Abby rhyme no reason as to why some do and some don’t.
> 
> Is there an explanation?    Is something I’m doing inadvertently?


Yes to the last two questions. There is a one-time, one-way transfer of keywords (and location data) IF at the time that you first sync an image from Classic (which uploads a smart preview):

1. You had previously saved metadata to XMP for the image in question (either by doing Ctrl/Cmd+S or you had the auto-write to XMP option enabled in the Catalog Settings), and

2. At the time of initiating that first sync a smart preview for that image did not already exist from a previous creation.

The explanation is that when the smart preview is created for syncing, any existing XMP metadata associated with the original file is also included in the smart preview, which is then read by the cloud server and applied to the cloud catalog. However, if the smart preview already existed, i.e. it had been created when the image was first imported into Classic, the smart preview is copied to the cloud rather than have a new one created for syncing purposes, and it would likely NOT have any associated metadata.


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## Martin Owen (Jul 5, 2021)

Thanks Jim.
I think I understand.
My way of working is usually to import to Mobile on my iPad from the camera memory card or I take images using the iPhone camera and then load those to Lightroom Mobile from the phone camera  roll. Then let mobile sync to the cloud.   Sometimes I edit on the iPad, sometimes I wait till they appear in Classic on my iMac and then edit.  In all cases I don’t add to collections or add keywords until they’re on the iMac in Classic.  In rare cases, I’ll scan a photo from my scanner directly into the iMac and then edit and keyword.
The trouble is, I can‘t still recognize which ones are getting the keyword sync.  It seems random.
However, I do understand your explanation.

Many thanks again.


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## MarkNicholas (Jul 6, 2021)

Cletus, are your photos that are in the cloud smart previews or originals ?
I only have smart previews in the cloud. All originals are on the desktop and backed up on external hard drives.
If I want to change / add keywords then all I have to do is de-sync them from the cloud. Make the changes in classic and then recreate new smart previews which will have fully synced keywords.
Is it beyond the realms of practicality to do something similar with your cloudy photos ?


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## MarkNicholas (Jul 6, 2021)

Jim Wilde said:


> There is a one-time, one-way transfer of keywords (and location data) IF at the time that you first sync an image from Classic (which uploads a smart preview):


The one-time, one-way transfer is a bit misleading. With smart previews if you want to change the keywords and have them fully synced with classic then all you have to do is de-sync them from the cloud, make the necessary keyword changes in classic and then re-sync. You can do this as many times as you like.


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## Jim Wilde (Jul 6, 2021)

MarkNicholas said:


> The one-time, one-way transfer is a bit misleading. With smart previews if you want to change the keywords and have them fully synced with classic then all you have to do is de-sync them from the cloud, make the necessary keyword changes in classic and then re-sync. You can do this as many times as you like.


But that's just "starting over" every time....it's still a one-time transfer unless you scratch it all and start again. And no matter how many times you start over it's always a one way deal, the point being that the keywords do not sync (i.e. flow both ways) between Classic and the cloud.


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## MarkNicholas (Jul 6, 2021)

Jim Wilde said:


> But that's just "starting over" every time....it's still a one-time transfer unless you scratch it all and start again. And no matter how many times you start over it's always a one way deal, the point being that the keywords do not sync (i.e. flow both ways) between Classic and the cloud.


Yes its a work-around for problematic situations not an everyday thing to do. However, I do it so often that it is part of my work flow and is a very quick fix. I think "starting-over" is a bit dramatic. Its more like going back and repeating a couple of steps.


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## tspear (Jul 6, 2021)

@clee01l 

Since from previous posts I know Classic is the primary catalog, why not wipe Cloudy and resync after you cleaned up keywords in Classic?

Tim

Sent from my HD1907 using Tapatalk


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## clee01l (Jul 6, 2021)

MarkNicholas said:


> Cletus, are your photos that are in the cloud smart previews or originals ?


My workflow is thru my iPadPro.  I import originals from the camera card to mobile Lightroom on the iPadPro.   These are then sync'd to the cloud and back down to the  Master catalog on my iMac.   Jim Wilde has already provided the definitive answer.


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## MarkNicholas (Jul 7, 2021)

tspear said:


> @clee01l
> 
> Since from previous posts I know Classic is the primary catalog, why not wipe Cloudy and resync after you cleaned up keywords in Classic?
> 
> ...


This is along the lines of what I have suggested but the gurus don't seem to like it. It would be interesting to know which was the quicker solution, i.e. deleting keywords in cloudy one by one and still not having synced keywords with classic or just de-syncing, fixing the the keywords in classic and re-syncing. However, as he has 20,000 photos to sort out its probably a bit beyond this work-around. For the odd 10s and 100s it would be fine.


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## tspear (Jul 7, 2021)

MarkNicholas said:


> This is along the lines of what I have suggested but the gurus don't seem to like it. It would be interesting to know which was the quicker solution, i.e. deleting keywords in cloudy one by one and still not having synced keywords with classic or just de-syncing, fixing the the keywords in classic and re-syncing. However, as he has 20,000 photos to sort out its probably a bit beyond this work-around. For the odd 10s and 100s it would be fine.



You have the effort to fix the keywords in Classic no matter what. If you goal is to just remove keywords, than manually doing it as @Jim Wilde  said is ou best bet. If you goal is to bring Classic and Cloudy into alignment, then you need to clean Classic, and update Cloudy from Classic with a new sync after you have the keywords written to the image file.  From then on, it would be a manual process to remove the images from Cloudy after they have been fully completed in Classic and re-sync them.


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## clee01l (Jul 7, 2021)

tspear said:


> You have the effort to fix the keywords in Classic no matter what. If you goal is to just remove keywords, than manually doing it as @Jim Wilde said is ou best bet. If you goal is to bring Classic and Cloudy into alignment, then you need to clean Classic, and update Cloudy from Classic with a new sync after you have the keywords written to the image file. From then on, it would be a manual process to remove the images from Cloudy after they have been fully completed in Classic and re-sync them.


Here is the deal.  I am hopeful that at some point Adobe will sync Cloudy keywords back to Classic and vice versa.   To this end, I want to remove cloudy key words (not an easy task) and then work om building a flat keyword list in Classic so that if and when  the two apps start syncing keywords, I'll have a clean set of keywords in  Classic to sync to cloudy.   If Adobe NEVER syncs classic and cloudy keywords, then I'll manage my keywords exclusively in Classic.


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## tspear (Jul 7, 2021)

@clee01l

Make the business case for Adobe. 
Put in a the feedback to Adobe that they make a feature to only support flat keywords in Classic, and when the user does this allow keywords to sync to the cloud. The excuse provided by Adobe about why they do not sync keywords is the complexity of mapping hierarchy to flat, so eliminate the stumbling bloick.

Now for the business case, if Adobe synced keywords, they would likely find many more people who would upgrade from the 20GB Photography Plan based around Classic to the 1TB Photography Plan still based around Classic and follow the ingestion and other work flows many here use with cloudy as the front end to Classic.

If Adobe promised to do it fairly soon, I know they would get another 120 bucks a year from me as I would switch back to the 1TB Photography ($20/month) plan from the 1 TB Cloudy ($10/month) plan.


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## PhilBurton (Jul 7, 2021)

tspear said:


> @clee01l
> 
> Make the business case for Adobe.
> Put in a the feedback to Adobe that they make a feature to only support flat keywords in Classic, and when the user does this allow keywords to sync to the cloud. The excuse provided by Adobe about why they do not sync keywords is the complexity of mapping hierarchy to flat, so eliminate the stumbling bloick.
> ...


My strong impression is that Adobe sees the customer base for Cloudy as separate and distinct from Classic.  Assuming I'm correct, then you are asking Adobe to re-architect both products to support joint usage.  So far I've stayed away from Cloudy because of the workflow/integration issues.

A "proper" busness case requires hard numbers, which of course is impossible to do if you are not inside Adobe.  What is the total cost, of development including testing?  What is the size of each customer base and what % are likely to upgrade to the $20/month plan.  Now to be clear most companies do _not _do a proper business case, especially for new features and I have zero specific knowledge of Adobe's process in this area.  it is entirely possible that a well-crafted qualitative argument may be sufficient to persuade decision-makers at Adobe.

Phil


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## clee01l (Jul 7, 2021)

PhilBurton said:


> My strong impression is that Adobe sees the customer base for Cloudy as separate and distinct from Classic.


Actually, I see the situation just the opposite. True there are cloudy customers that will never get a package that includes Classic. But on the other side it is just the opposite. Every Classic customer has a subscription to Cloudy (And Photoshop). Adobe includes tools to sync some (but not all) Classic images and metadata into Cloudy. It appears to me that Adobe intends Classic users to use Cloudy to some extent. 
The earliest release of Cloudy lacked features found in Classic. Some of these features are difficult to implement on a mobile OS/. And the mobile Lightroom has been ported to the desktop. Many features that were left out of the early releases of Lightroom (cloudy) have since been added to the product

In the Lightroom cloud, Adobe maintains the original image and much of the metadata. The sync process syncs the original image or a proxy and SOME of the metadata. All I think needs be included in the sync process is ALL of the metadata.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## tspear (Jul 7, 2021)

@PhilBurton 

I spent a fair amount of time searching for workflow, processing and other terms related to Lr.  In all the research I did, I did not find a single blog, post, page, book which defined any process or workflow which was just Cloudy. I did find a lot of suggestions to either be Classic only, or use Cloudy as an ingestion platform for Classic; in exactly the manor that many on here suggest. I even did that for a bit to test things out. 

Adobe has previously answered that the difference in keyword structures is what has largely precluded the ability to consider syncing the two platforms at this time. Having looked into some of the complexities as I did multiple migrations going the other direction; I can understand why Adobe hesitates to tackle this issue. 

Therefore, my suggestion to Cletus is to provide feedback to Adobe to eliminate the barrier by going with the lowest common denominator in terms of functionality, and allow the systems to sync at that point. This turns the problem on its head, and would encourage more people to consider Cloudy as an ingestion point to Classic.


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## Johan Elzenga (Jul 8, 2021)

Remember one thing: Lightroom Mobile is quite a bit older than Lightroom desktop. When Lightroom Mobile was introduced, it had to sync with _some_ desktop product and at that time there was only Lightroom 6/Lightroom CC2015. That is why Adobe added the sync features to that app. When a dedicated desktop version for the Lightroom ecosystem was introduced a few years later, that sync was no longer needed that much. Adobe did not remove it, but they never added anything anymore either and they more or less officially said they never would.


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## PhilBurton (Jul 9, 2021)

tspear said:


> @PhilBurton
> 
> I spent a fair amount of time searching for workflow, processing and other terms related to Lr.  In all the research I did, I did not find a single blog, post, page, book which defined any process or workflow which was just Cloudy. I did find a lot of suggestions to either be Classic only, or use Cloudy as an ingestion platform for Classic; in exactly the manor that many on here suggest. I even did that for a bit to test things out.
> 
> [ ... ]


@tspear 

I'm probably (ha!  certainly!) not in the target demographic for Cloudy, but I have to think that there are people who do photography only with their phones and want to export only as social media posts or perhaps messages to friends and family.  Did you not find any post, page, etc., which described such a workflow?

I have even seen ads on TV for phone apps that allow simple editing, and then posting. I'm not personally interested in such a workflow, so I didn't pay much attetniion.


tspear said:


> This turns the problem on its head, and would encourage more people to consider Cloudy as an ingestion point to Classic.


My solution to ingestion of phone photos is to copy them from the phone (iOS) to a desktop folder, and then do the import from there.  I'm sure that's antediluvian, but hey, I'm a baby boomer.


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## tspear (Jul 9, 2021)

PhilBurton said:


> I'm probably (ha!  certainly!) not in the target demographic for Cloudy, but I have to think that there are people who do photography only with their phones and want to export only as social media posts or perhaps messages to friends and family.  Did you not find any post, page, etc., which described such a workflow?
> 
> I have even seen ads on TV for phone apps that allow simple editing, and then posting. I'm not personally interested in such a workflow, so I didn't pay much attetniion.



I do not think of that as a workflow. That is take a pic, do a couple quick edits and post. No meta data management, no QA, no culling process, no comparisons of multiple shots... The "social media" post is the only flow I found. And is useless for anyone that actually wants to manage the images.



PhilBurton said:


> My solution to ingestion of phone photos is to copy them from the phone (iOS) to a desktop folder, and then do the import from there.  I'm sure that's antediluvian, but hey, I'm a baby boomer.



My parents are baby boomers, and they are significantly more active on FB and everything else than I am 
However, their image management is ideal for Cloudy. Take a pic, tag people, and post, sync to OneDrive; later they organize the images in folders based on year/trip|season/location.


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## clee01l (Jul 9, 2021)

PhilBurton said:


> My solution to ingestion of phone photos is to copy them from the phone (iOS) to a desktop folder, and then do the import from there. I'm sure that's antediluvian, but hey, I'm a baby boomer.


This "baby boomer" is lazy and is always looking for the easiest and least convoluted means to get photos into my Lightroom Catalog.   This is why Mobile Lightroom fits so well as a front end to Classic.  All of this steps to copy from one device to another and use the import process is antediluvian.   Time to step into the 21st century.


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## clee01l (Jul 9, 2021)

tspear said:


> My parents are baby boomers, and they are significantly more active on FB and everything else than I am


I believe the younger generations have abandoned FB for other social media.  It might even be fair to say that baby boomers are the dominant FB users,


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## tspear (Jul 9, 2021)

clee01l said:


> I believe the younger generations have abandoned FB for other social media.  It might even be fair to say that baby boomers are the dominant FB users,


Yes, however my mom and first mother in law have both followed all the grand kids onto other platforms. Snapchat, Instagram....
My generation on the other hand, barely uses any social media. 
It is rather funny.


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## clee01l (Jul 2, 2021)

A Little background:
When I began using Lightroom (now Classic) I established a hierarchal keyword list.  This worked well for me until I started using Lightroom (cloudy)   At some point, my keyword lists got into a jumbled mess with som hierarchic keywords and some flat.  Sometimes the same keyword in the hierarchy and as a flat keyword. 

Once I determined how Classic and cloudy keywords interacted with each other  (or didn't interact) I kind of dropped the keyword part of my workflow.   I have no decided to replace the Classic hierarchy with a flat list.  I would ideally like this flat list appear in Classic and Cloudy.   I am hopeful that at some point Adobe will sync cloudy and classic keywords as a two way exchange.  For Now,   I understand that keywords in Classic will not sync to existing images in Cloudy but will get added to cloudy when new proxy images are added to cloudy from Classic.   Once an image is in Cloudy, changes in Classic keyword are not made in the "cloudy" keywords associated with that image  And changes in cloudy are not propagated back to Classic. 

Optimistically hoping that there will one day exist a common syncable keyword process between Classic and Cloudy,   I want to get my Classic Keywords  clean and usable again.   For now I am content to convert my hierarchal keyword list to a flat list.   BUT,  I have a problem with the keywords that are in cloudy.   I would like to remove these keywords in some batch process so that no keywords are stored in my cloudy library.    With 20,000 images in my cloudy library,   I can not find a way to remove  keywords except one image at a time.    Does any one have any suggestions?


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## johnbeardy (Jul 9, 2021)

I hear many prefer "story" or other short term posts that disappear after being read and don't leave any audit trail for prospective employers etc


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## clee01l (Jul 9, 2021)

tspear said:


> My generation on the other hand, barely uses any social media.


And you are probably all the better for doing so.   Though, one benefit I get from FB is to reconnect with all go my high school friends from the Class 0f '65. And College and VietNam platoon too.


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## tspear (Jul 9, 2021)

johnbeardy said:


> I hear many prefer "story" or other short term posts that disappear after being read and don't leave any audit trail for prospective employers etc



Never considered that. I will ask my kids if that plays into it.



clee01l said:


> And you are probably all the better for doing so.   Though, one benefit I get from FB is to reconnect with all go my high school friends from the Class 0f '65. And College and VietNam platoon too.



lol, well the reality is we are too busy with other priorities. I actually joined FB to find where my parents are so I know when I can call. Until COVID hit and put my dad in the hospital for over 40 days, my parents spent about 8 months of the year traveling. Usually 2-3 weeks at a time in the states, and 4-6 week trips when going abroad. So FB was handy to know what time zone they are in. 

Otherwise, I use FB for the same thing, keep up with friends and family around the world.; handy when going somewhere to see if I know anyone. Those who post their latest meal get "unfollowed".


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## PhilBurton (Jul 10, 2021)

tspear said:


> I do not think of that as a workflow. That is take a pic, do a couple quick edits and post. No meta data management, no QA, no culling process, no comparisons of multiple shots... The "social media" post is the only flow I found. And is useless for anyone that actually wants to manage the images.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Taking photos and then posting them on FB and possibly nothing more, is still a workflow, just as "chaos" is a software planning process.  Of course you and I and probably others in this forum, can agree that such processes are not useful for us, even as they are useful for other people. 

I myself am guilty of sometimes taking photos with my phones and then sending out via SMS to a few friends or my wife.   Of course, many of those photos will be also be imported into LR, cataloged, edited, etc, according to their long-term value.  However, if I do a photo of a shelf at the local supermarket and then send that to my wife, that photo has no long-term value and will probably be deleted quickly.  That's also a workflow.


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## PhilBurton (Jul 10, 2021)

clee01l said:


> This "baby boomer" is lazy and is always looking for the easiest and least convoluted means to get photos into my Lightroom Catalog.   This is why Mobile Lightroom fits so well as a front end to Classic.  All of this steps to copy from one device to another and use the import process is antediluvian.   Time to step into the 21st century.


Cletus.  Good point.  Now that my  overall LR workflow has matured, it's time to fine-tune it.  However, there were some parts of the 20h century worth retaining.  

On a related note, someone just emailed me to describe how he just discovered Fast Raw Viewer and finds it useful.  Two years ago, I bought FRV but I had some issues with the interface and stopped using it.  Time for me to update to the latest version and try it out again.


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